Freedom. It’s a blessing and a bitch. As graduates of the 21st century, the average Jane and Joe are loaded with expectations aplenty. Cell phones, computers, and iPods® are a given these days. Credit cards? Perhaps only for gas and groceries. But that’s on the list also. The expenses of the young are laden with a thousand cuts of consumerism. But none of them compare to the cost of a car. So, what should all the members of the family do? Think. Think. Think.
What you do should be a reflection of the type of person you’re doing it for. Has the student been academically successful? Ambitious? Are they easy going and laid back? Or loaded with more hormonal imbalances than a Sweet 16? If he/she/it is the best of all things, a late model used car may really not be a bad thing. There are plenty of folks in their thirties and beyond who were able to put their best feet forward in their college years by having a car that was reasonable to maintain and even fun. They may not have been given a new Mustang convertible and taken over their family’s business, but they were able to establish their own merits throughout life despite having something a little nice given to them before college. Rewarding good work in this respect is not really a bad thing. It’s worth considering.
Accidents? Were they reckless? Does this person average two to three dope slap moments a day? B average? Remember, in many schools today’s B is yesterday’s C. Those who may have a few strikes against them may require a car whose cost isn’t so much on the higher side. A hand me down Plain Jane Ford Taurus, Honda Accord or Toyota Camry may be perfectly fine. If they keep up with it until junior year and get good grades, then you can revisit the idea of a nicer car at that time. Or perhaps a later time. Of course the non-enthusiast may be more interested in a nice bike or a cheap place to live off campus. Again, this is all worth considering.
If he/she/it is not going to college or receiving some type of professional training (military service, police work, vocational schools) . . . they pay the gas and the insurance . . . and the car. It’s that simple. Life will be far less brutal if they take responsibility for their behaviors with their own money from the get go. Some will succeed outside the college or pre-professional route. A lot of others will be stuck in minimal wage and unemployed ruts. The less money involved when they dig themselves into the ditch. The easier it will be to help get them out, and back in the real world.
Finally, remember it’s just a car. Their footwear is going to have a bigger impact on their life than the car they drive. In fact many of them may not even want the car after the freshman year or will gladly exchange the “car” for some off-campus housing that is far less costly. Since we’re in a recession and people are less car-centric these days, the need for four wheels is not necessarily a given. If money is tight and college is a must, plan accordingly. Some of the best plans can be laid to waste. But they pale to the waste that comes with giving someone the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.
my parents are probably what you’d consider upper middle class, and refused to spend a penny on anything car related for me in high school. It just didn’t seem like a good use of money to them apparently… even though they apparently have decided to buy bmws every 3 years. That said having no job in high school it was basically impossible to buy a car and insure and gas it so I just didn’t bother and concentrated more on actually going to a good college. Maybe it was a good thing.
I did not get my license until a month before my 19th, birthday which is pretty unheard of in los angeles, car capital of america pretty much.
That said I worked summers in college and bought a salvaged nissan altima. Got me through college and to my first job with a real salary…
Then I bought a G35 coupe… And you know earning your own cars will make you love them that much more. Would I like to have had a car earlier? Sure it would have been way more fun driving around in high school instead of walking 2 miles. But, did I absolutely need one? No. But I feel ok about how it went for me. You probably don’t even need a car in college either if you really think about it so in these economic times I say make the kid earn it.
Best car for a high school or college student?
A bicycle. Period.
I learned back in 1969 that for getting around campus, nothing beat a bike. And even though I got my first car five years later, I still used the bicycle most of the time.
Or they could do like I did in high school/college: get a job and buy their own damn car.
I’ll third the above sentiment. Get a job. Buy yer own sled. Appreciate it more.
“Or they could do like I did in high school/college: get a job and buy their own damn car.”
+1
Its what I did in college. This isn’t a “You kids get off my lawn!” kind of statement, either–I’m 24.
I can see helping pay for insurance, though, since if you’re under 26 the insurance companies make you take it up the ass, even if you have a good driving record (yes, I’m bitter about this!)
I refused to buy a car until I could put down 20%+ so I (hopefully) wouldn’t be upside down on a 5 year loan. My first car I bought when I was 29.
My house buying experience is going to be similar (should be closing in the next month).
All through college I took public transport, rode a bicycle, or borrowed the ‘rents car (1979 mercury monarch & 1977 chevy impala) and paid every drop of gasoline I used as well as my own full coverage insurance. I used the car 90% of the time simply to get to work (20 miles away, not near public transport) so that I could pay for my own education.
In college, having a car for “fun” or transport between parties was the last of my worries. Actually “fun” was the last of my worries. Working 35 hours a week + 15 hours of classes every semester for my last 3 years or so let me finish college without almost no debt — except for the debt to my parents for teaching me fortitude & the value of hard work.
I’ll second/third/fourth/etc Frank. But if you want to be nice to your kids, sell them one of your cars. Your kid gets a car that you know has been well maintained, and chances are they’re already very familiar with it.
I bought my own first vehicle when I was 17 with some help from my parents. It was a BMW… Motorcycle. It was a surprise “gift” from my dad, on condition he could ride it too, but I still had to pay for it. It was fun that way because they essentially became the bank, giving me an interest-free loan on the bike and holding possession until I paid it off. I quickly did, then used the capital to fund my next bike, and the bike after that, and so on. My initial investment was carried over without losses as I traded up over the years.
I only bought my first car two years ago, near the end of my university stint. And I regret it because it’s been a drain on my finances and my patience – old cars, however good a shape they are in, always need work to keep running. Even with my skills as a mechanic it still costs me a lot of time, and parts are never cheap. Plus its a fuel sucking pig, which made it impossible to feed when I was short on grocery money. I wish I had stuck to using motorbikes as my exclusive form of transport and not bothered getting a car, because now I can’t sell the damn thing.
This begs the question of what exactly is the purpose of going to college and how is your kid spending their time there? All the college campuses I’ve been to don’t require a car for typical student life if you live on or close to campus. If you do need one, Flexcar is becoming present on many campuses and regular rentals are available for longer term needs and you won’t have to worry about parking permits, maintenance and the inevitable vandalism from your fellow knowledge-seekers.
Really, discussion time should be spent on figuring out what the kid is at college for and how to excel in their chosen field. If they’re not ready for that then they can work and make a living themselves instead of pissing away $100k over the next 4-5-6 years.
Maybe I’m just not seeing why a college student NEEDS a car.
I grew up in a working class neighborhood and just the thought of mommy and daddy buying a car for some kid would have that kid ostracized from town. Plus we would have stolen his car.
Maybe I’m just not seeing why a college student NEEDS a car.
Well, I commuted my first year. A lot of college students commute now.
And if they’re far away, maybe their parents don’t feel like driving 300 miles round trip to take them home every vacation break.
Who are you people that can consider not getting the kid a car at 16ish? I would bet you did not grow up in the vast plains of Illinois though. I did my fair share of walking too, but to get anywhere (like my job), I had to drive 20+ miles. My parents didn’t buy me a car though, they handed me down their 7 yr old Camry, instead of trading it in for the $500 being offered at the time.
So, my point is that where you live is an important part of the equation not mentioned in the article or other posts here.
Cars for kids are also about fathers emphasising that they take better care of their families than all the other fathers.
There are kids whose parents buy them a 3-series for high school graduation, paid for with a check, just like they write checks for the 35k in tuition and the $2k a month allowance. It’s about being an exceptionally good provider.
There is a lot to be said for fathers (and mothers) who go the extra mile to take exceptional care of their families.
The majority of my daughter’s friends at college don’t have a car there. She has a ’93 Volvo 240 wagon we bought so that she could be self propelled, but during the school year she put under 2,000 miles on it over nine months. Most of the time she and her friends use the buses. This summer the only job she could find is 45 miles from home, so the mileage is going to go way up.
The need, or not, for a car depends a lot on where you are located and where the school is. The choice of a 240 was pretty easy. I can work on it, it doesn’t go very fast, has outstanding visibility, good crash protection and doesn’t cost very much.
Funny, I know of a red FGT exactly like the one pictured above that went to the 16 year old kid of a local businessman here in Houston. Wonder if it (and the kid) are still in one piece……
Give them a bike – as in bicycle – to take to college.
Then, sell them one of your own cars.
jmo
Cars for kids are also about fathers emphasising that they take better care of their families than all the other fathers.
The kids whose parents buy them a 3-series for high school graduation, paid for with a check, just like they write checks for the 35k in tuition and the $2k a month allowance.
There is a lot to be said for fathers (and mothers) who go the extra mile to take exceptional care of their families.
And how is providing a kid with status symbols and handing everything to them on a silver platter being a better parent or taking better care of your kids than teaching them the rewards of hard work, the satisfaction of earning their own way, and the value of a dollar (what little there is now)?
teaching them the rewards of hard work, the satisfaction of earning their own way, and the value of a dollar
I think if you look at the statistics on intergenerational income mobility, you will find that your theory is incorrect. I presume this is because children of privilege acquire a taste for it and are willing to do what it takes to maintain their lifestyle.
IIRC 2 of my cousins got handouts like above (not BMW’s, but brand new cars upon h.s. graduation, all college paid by parents).
The 2 that got this are in their mid to late 30’s and the parents are still subsidizing or paying their rent/house payment now.
The 2 that got this are in their mid to late 30’s and the parents are still subsidizing or paying their rent/house payment now.
That’s hard to square with the actual numbers: “New estimates based on intergenerational data from the Panel Study of Income Dynamics imply that the intergenerational correlation in long-run income is at least 0.4, indicating dramatically less mobility than suggested by earlier research. “
I commuted about 30 minutes to my college campus and needed a car to get back and forth. I wanted something used (Contour or Mystique) but my Father wanted me to get something new.
I got a ’99 Escort ZX2. He gave me about $1,000 towards the vehicle so I could get options like ABS and the Sports Package. The rest of the vehicle was financed under his name and I paid for it with my part-time job. We split the cost of insurance.
I kept the car until I got my full time job, saved up half the cost of my next vehicle, and bought an ’04 Accord V6. Then I foolishly traded that in for an ’06 TSX because I wanted a “luxury” car. Stupid, stupid, stupid! The Accord was paid for. Well, the TSX is paid for now and I’m keeping it for a long time.
I’ve learned a lot about money and cars, and seeing my peers with car leases and payments over $450 a month, I’ve decided my next vehicle purchase will be used.
I graduated in ’03, and even then a lot of kids drove newish BMWs and Mercedes to campus. Six years later there are even more new luxury cars on the lots when I drive by. Must be nice to get be given new cars.
JMO:
Thankyou for finally saying it: “Children of privledge”.
For those of us who are children of the proletariat, life doesn’t work that way. We don’t have a “lifestyle” to maintain, nor do most of live in myopic bubbles where all we… Of course people do, it’s called the “middle class”.
I’ll buy my kid a car, but it’ll be a Volvo, like mine. they’ll have to pay for it, and when they graduate college, I will give that money back.
Hahaha!
I wanted another Iroc Camaro like my dad’s but my mom decided I should drive a four-door sedan.
Luckily, I was able to convince them that a used, manual transmission Ford Taurus was the way to go.
Hehehe…
Frank Williams +1 – the aim is not to spoil or overprotect your kids but to teach them the skills they need to be successful in the real world – a big part of which is self-reliance. Buying your kid a 3 series will just inflate their sense of entitlement.
New cars for college/high school students?
No, should always be used, even if the family is wealthy.
New cars are expensive. A couple years used knocks a huge chunk off the initial cost.
My parents bought me a Camry right when I got my lisense when I turned 18 because they realized having to work for my car at 8 dollars an hour is a horrible waste of time. It’s better IMHO to buy your kid a car ASAP, put him through school/med school/whatever, then pay his parents back when he’s making 30-40 dollars an hour or whatever.
Working at minimum wage sucks. At my age, you NEED a car, and studying in school is a much better use of time than working. Last week marked my first year of driving, and no accidents! I have almost killed myself many times, though. I also take care of my car by keeping it shiny and washing it once a month. :D RESPONSIBILITY RULES.
So parents, please buy your kid a car in college. Don’t make him work at minimum wage for hours because it’s a waste of his/her youth. Encourage him to study and get a good education. That’s what matters!
And also, I believe buying used is a good idea like commanderfish said. You’ll save thousands and thousands. But a new car, like a Camry, deeply discounted, makes sense to me. What if your kid has a final and your car breaks down?!
Few things:
Cars made me who I am today. I bought my ’86 Mustang when I was 18, it was a hooligan mobile, and I tore that thing apart from end to end and learned to wrench on it. Now that’s who I am; I work in engineering and solve technical problems at my job, I still fix everything I come across. (I’m not an engineer, only kind of like one… see next paragraph.)
I have terrible ADD/Lazyness so when I did go to college I had little interest in it, and it didn’t go well. I was right out of high school, socially inept, and all I thought about was fixing up my hot rod. Dramatically immature and short sighted… It took a few years of doing different things (hauling fuel, farming, ???) for me to finally take aim at something, ie: going back to school to become an Engineering Technologist. It’s a pretty good gig, actually. I’m lucky.
What I’m saying is, having a car is OK, but cars shouldn’t be your life when school should be your life.
Finally, the experience of having a cool or fast car (My mustang was kind of fast and kind of cool) when you’re young is an amazing experience, and something I’d hope any young person could enjoy. You’re only young once. When you’re old and have a fast/cool car, you’re still old. It’s not even about showing off. Rock and roll, fast cars, they’re only really right at that time. I carry the hope that my offspring will be mature enough, and I wealthy enough, to allow them to experience fantastic, capable autombiles when they are in their 20’s.
Romanjetfighter: those are some damn good points, and I believe in them as well. Harness the earning power of the experienced to provide for the youth, as more than ever, education is key. Sure, working min. wage jobs provides, “character,” but IMO, there are better ways to do this.
the skills they need to be successful in the real world
Entitlement is just such a skill. I see it every day. Someone bust their ass on a project and it’s a huge success. They go to their boss and say, “I need a raise.” The boss says, “Sorry, it’s not in the budget. Since they don’t feel “entitled” to a raise they just meekly accept it.
For those with a sense of entitlement, they soon quit, after landing a new job using their recent success to launch them into a higher paying position.
A proportionate sense of entitlement can be a very healthy thing in this world.
jmo – feelings of entitlement do not get you a raise – they just annoy your co-workers.
Carguy,
I could send you the salary spreadsheet, the meek are making 25-50k less a year than the “entitled”.
It’s just a fact of life.
Convince some lower classmen to serve as your sedan chair carriers. No insurance. No maintenance, repair or operational costs. No green house gas emissions unless the underclassmen receive their pay in the form of bean & cheese burritos.
Problem solved.
I drove a Porsche 930 in college. Largely due to a) Getting one for a song that’d been given what they call a “hard life” by a doctor’s wife, and b) Working three jobs to pay for it, and everything else I cared to provide myself with. Like an education.
Today that concept is about as alien among college age kids as being able to think about something, much less do something, without first consulting the handily provided campus manual to see if one will be in breach of a given “ethics code”.
In short, if they can’t pay for it, or at least a large chunk of it themselves, let ’em walk.
My Dad served as a Canadian Army officer.In my dads world things were black or white.
At sixteen I told dad,I was done with school and I wanted a car.My dad give me three choices.
#1 Stay at school, go to university,he would bust his ass to help pay for it,but NO car
#2 Stay in school get a part time job,and he would match me dollar for dollar to buy a car.
If I didn’t get a diploma I had to pay him back.
#3 Quit school your board will be $20 a week,starting the day you quit school.He give me 30 days to find a job or find somewhere else to live.
To my lifelong regret I chose option #3
May you Rest in Peace Dad
Entitlement is just a form of narcissism and those social “skills” will do nothing for the individual in the long run. All this loving yourself, and believing in yourself, is nonsense. Nobody is entitled to anything. You can believe in yourself all you want, but only working at something continually will get you anywhere. Enough gold stars for those who only show up, showing up means nothing if you don’t make any attempt to work at something earnestly.
Good book on the subject:
http://www.narcissismepidemic.com/
Also, in regard to what carguy said about entitlement annoying your coworkers, the book argues that over the long term people with a sense of entitlement end up alianting themsleves from others.
Maybe entitlement is the incorrect word for what your describing? If you really did work hard and know that you’ve been shafted and move on because of it than I’d call that driven. If you are wrong, however, and are only full of your sense of entitlement, you’ll find getting that higher paying new job is almost impossible.
carguy, he said “A proportionate sense of entitlement…” that’s different from the shlubs who have delusions of adequacy.
I wish I had something impassioned or poetic to add….
But – I was a “child of privilege” and my parents bought me a new Civic for my second year of college…(I didn’t even ask; it wasn’t discussed, and there were no strings attached).
I didn’t have to work to pay my tuition.
Most of the time the car just sat there for 3 years. It was nice to have, but I never really needed it.
FWIW
” … because children of privilege acquire a taste for it and are willing to do what it takes to maintain their lifestyle.”
Or that the good old boys and girls network continues to take care of their own.
Nobody is entitled to anything.
If you do great work and the company is making money you are entitled to a raise. If you don’t get one, you need to find another job. Raising your kids without a healthy sense of entitlement is condemning them to a lifetime of beater driving wage slavery.
@FrankWilliams, @carguy: I agree. It is as much a subtractive methodology as an additive one. Ultimately, passion is what drives the most sincere, meaningful pursuits in life. And passion is not always created in children by spoiling them in order to maintain some phony bourgeois simulacra which is aimed at whitewashing raging insecurities and malignant narcissistic personality disorder.
Sometimes, passion is created as much out of what you’re deprived of as what you receive.
jmo – Maybe you confuse self esteem or self confidence with entitlement but I can also assure you that your parents buying you a 3 series does nothing for your long term self esteem – if anything its a poor material substitute for self confidence and a daily reminder that you couldn’t pay for it yourself.
William,
that was beautiful.
Depends on the campus and the student’s living arrangement.
There are a *lot* of college towns out there where owning a car is a royal pain in the ass in terms of time and money.
In situations like that the typical student is far better off using a mix of foot, bicycle, and public transportation.
jmo makes good points on the work references…if you directly influenced the project’s success, then you are likely entitled to a raise. That is different from being entitled to a new car as a kid. It is something you have worked for–you have earned it. We’re talking two separate definitions of a sense of entitlement here.
Regarding cars; no one is entitled to have another buy them a car, period. I am from an upper-middle class background. My brother and I bought our first (shared) car 13 years ago for $500, split evenly. It broke a lot, and we learned to fix it, as well as many other important life lessons. Those same lessons have taught me the value of a dollar, where it should be put, and helped me reach success on my own. To add, my parents paid 1/2 of my college tuition, also…the rest is mine. I went to school and worked 2-3 jobs throughout college (all part time, obviously). It’s really not hard. And I had a hell of a lot of fun, also. I didn’t sacrifice fun, I sacrificed sleeping in, playing video games, watching tv and lounging around…there is a lot of lost time in those activities.
Rest assure, my children will be taught the same lessons, no matter how wealthy I may ever be.
NN wrote:
no one is entitled to have another buy them a car, period
Such a broad blanket statement? Wow.
My parents put me through college and med school. For their 40th anniversary, I surprised them with a new MB E class, something they would never have splurged on. I think they are entitled. Had to force them to take it!
jmo:
Raising your kids without a healthy sense of entitlement is condemning them to a lifetime of beater driving wage slavery.
Sounds rather misanthropic, don’t you think?
I always thought it would be a fair deal to meet my child halfway. That is pay for half of whatever they could afford for a car, so if they saved $3k for a car we would get a $6k car. That way they have to work for it, but it’s not quite as hard for them to get a decent ride. I don’t want them to suffer, but I do want them to learn the value of earning something for yourself. Nothing you get for free is as enjoyable as something you worked hard for.
@jmo – buying your kids a brand new 3 series without making them lift a finger to earn it isn’t being a good provider. It’s spoiling your kids. I went to a wealthy prep school for a few unpleasant years (there on scholarship). Those kids who got everything they wanted were the most worthless, disgusting human beings I’ve ever met.
without making them lift a finger to earn it isn’t being a good provider.
Who said anything about not making them lift a finger? 4.2 Honors GPA = 335xi. 3.5 GPA – beater civic. Below 3.5 nothing.
To buy them one when they don’t do anything is spoiling them. Buying them something nice when they do great work is teaching them a valuable lesson.
When I was in school, my father let me drive one of his $300 beaters to get to my summer and holiday jobs.
After I graduated, he let me drive one of his $300 beaters to find work.
Then when I found work, he let me drive one of his $300 beaters to get to my job.
Until I could afford my own $300 beater, that is! After the engine work, that Olds was a cushy ride for the year and a half that I had it, with it’s sexy 1970’s red velour interior and mottled hybrid paint+rust exterior.
I say this from the bottom of my heart: Thanks, Dad!
doctorv8: The difference being that it was you who felt they were entitled to it, not the other way around. If they said “We’ve put you through college and med school, you’re buying us an E-Class, we’re entitled to it”. That would be wrong and completely different.
1. Some people appreciate the things they have, others not so much. In my experience, that die is cast long before a child is old enough to drive.
2. I wouldn’t be so quick to make the blanket statement “college kids don’t need a car”. Does a college kid need a NEW car? NO.
My first car was a 1984 VW Rabbit diesel. (Best student vehicle ever!) My dad’s cousin gave it to me when I was still in highschool, probably in 1991 or 92 so it was about 7 years old then and in need of some work. I did all the bodywork, regular maintenance, changed the timing belt and headgasket myself with my dad’s help.
I started a summer business cutting lawns so I could earn some money while still enjoying time at the family cottage. With the backseat folded down, I could fit a mower, weedwhacker, rake, and a sign that I put out to advertise while I worked, all in the VW. In my last summer before university (1994) I had enough clients to keep me working all day 3-4 days a week.
I took good care of the Rabbit, and it lasted me almost through university. I studied Engineering at a school with a co-op program. Two of my work terms were with companies almost 6 hours away from my parents’ house. Thanks to my car, I was able to drive home every few weeks and visit my parents and friends. For the rest of my workterms, I was able to find work within commuting distance of my parents’ house, saving a bundle on housing costs. I graduated debt-free.
Contrast that with one of my classmates in university: His parents gave him their old Chevy Malibu wagon. He ignored the idiot lights on the dashboard and drove it around with no oil pressure. It went to the scrapyard. All within 4 months.
I had a bike and was hitching rides. And you know what? That was in GRAD school. Now I’m 32 and still have 12% bodyfat.
Even if i could have afforded to do so, I would never have considered buying my son a new car (BMW or otherwise). Are you nuts? I shivered at the thought that my father-in-law was contemplating giving him the Firebird Firehawk he has tucked safely away in his garage. Given the immense amount of money that I’ve already spent on raising him (to be sure, it was all out of love, and I’d do it again in a heartbeat), no 17 year old needs to be behind the wheel of that much car. Period. If you want to be “young with a cool car” then save up your money after you graduate (be it high school or after college) and then buy what YOU can afford…not what your parents bought for you. My son purchased from my sister his 1997 Toyota Tercel with the funds he earned from several years of summer employment. It could stand a paint job, but oh, well. If he wanted it painted, he could fork over the money for the paint job. My only concession was that I didn’t force him to work his senior year to focus on his “job” of making the grades that he needed to pursue the future he wanted. Bottom line, he was mobile for his school/sports/extra-curricular activities, learned how to manage his money (to spend within HIS means, not mine), took care of his little car and is now set to enter the United State Air Force Academy next week. Thank goodness the car question is already resolved, as he can’t even have a car there…and he’s already commented that he wants the Tercel back in four years as opposed to going out and getting into debt over a new(er) car! Yes, I am proud of the boy for that!
I understand (sort of) that parents want to give their children more than they had, but truly giving them more than they had is instilling in them sound fiscal responsibility, not expensive handouts.
dolo54,
If the statistics of intergenerational income mobility are to be believed, and I think they are accurate. Why do affluent children grow up to be affluent?
Some might argue that it’s because: “the good old boys and girls network continues to take care of their own.”
I think it has to do with the fact that the attitude that makes them, to you at least, “the most worthless, disgusting human beings I’ve ever met.” Is also a major portion of the attitude that gets you ahead in this world.
I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying it is so.
Frank Williams :
June 19th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Or they could do like I did in high school/college: get a job and buy their own damn car.
+2
# Frank Williams :
June 19th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Or they could do like I did in high school/college: get a job and buy their own damn car.
I agree. Working to earn money for a used car and then shopping for one was good experience. Not sure, but I think I appreciated my first car more because of the hours of minimum wage work it took to buy it.
# midelectric :
June 19th, 2009 at 10:35 am
This begs the question of what exactly is the purpose of going to college and how is your kid spending their time there? All the college campuses I’ve been to don’t require a car for typical student life if you live on or close to campus…
In real America, flyover country, automobile = freedom. The car is one’s ticket out of the sheltered parent/academic/nanny state world and into the real world. It’s part of growing up.
When I finished high school, my parents offered me a choice. They would buy me my first car, but if they did, they wouldn’t pay for university tuition after the first year.
I took the car, because it was the bigger up-front cost. And then I found jobs so that I could stay on top of the tuition costs, and finish university without any debt.
Worked pretty well for me.
Or they could do like I did in high school/college: get a job and buy their own damn car.
And that is why the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. The wealthy are far more likely to make education the number one priority and forbid work.
The poor don’t put as high a value on eduction so they are far more likely to encourage their children to work, even when work is not absolutely necessary. Often to the detriment of their school work.
IF you look at two accountants, for example, one making 60k and the other making 600k, often the difference is due to the priority each family put on education.
There are accountants that make $600,000 a year? Crap, I’m in the wrong line of work!
Awesome article!
Several months ago while I was filling up my coffee cup at a Starbucks, a fairly new BMW pulled up next to my daily driver 2009 Civic. Insider were three hot high school girls that back in the day I would have been afraid to talk to. (lol) I first wondered if that was daddy’s car, but after looking it over, I figured it was her car, or at least hers to drive whenever she wanted. Yes, I know, nothing new here. But still, “Wow, she’s just in high school!”
When I have kids that are driving ages, I could see helping them out with a decent used car, but they are certainly going to help to pay for it. And certainly the insurance! And when they go off to college, I would expect for them to have saved money for a better used car.
There are accountants that make $600,000 a year
Sure, CFO, comptroller, treasurer, partner at E&Y or D&T for example.
The average D&T partner is brining in slightly less than $1,000,000 a year including bonuses.
ZoomZoom
There are accountants that make $600,000 a year?
There are accountants that make much more than that. They’re running GM and other companies that are going bankrupt.
jmo:
The poor don’t put as high a value on eduction so they are far more likely to encourage their children to work, even when work is not absolutely necessary. Often to the detriment of their school work.
I grew up poor. My parents couldn’t afford to buy me a car or put me through college. I worked full time in high school and graduated with honors – and a car and a healthy bank account. I worked full time through college and graduated with a degree in microbiology and no student loans I’d be paying off for the rest of my life. I worked full time through grad school and yes, my school work suffered – I made one “B” one quarter, which blew my perfect GPA.
Don’t give me this stuff about how if poor Johnny has to work, he won’t have time to study. It’s more likely he won’t have time to party. And I can guarantee you he’ll value that education lot more than someone who had it all handed to them just for being born into a family with money.
I think it may have been Milton Friedman who said that the college experience as a four year day spa cannot continue indefinitely. It is a bubble and there are signs of stress. The expectation of a car just adds to that. Currently, throughout liberal arts concentrations, the male:female ratio is approaching 2:3. Is this an assessment of the value versus cost of a liberal arts education by men, who probably are still more mindful of eventually making a living even with the attempts to gender-neutralize that sort of thinking? Maybe.
Shorter version – “Son, here’s a bank account with 150K in it for your education at Moderately-priced Private University. There is a Ford GT. Now, Son, if you are considering a degree in deconstruction theory, I’d suggest the Ford. Worth more after 4 years and much more fun to boot.”
Frank,
I did the same thing as I came from a poor family as well. But, our sucess is a statistical outlier. If you look at people who grow up poor they tend to stay poor. There are any number of contributing factors – but, a low appreciation for the value of education is found primarily among the disadvantaged.
jmo,
writing as a college instructor, might I offer up a different reading of the situation. Our society is stratifying itself more and more; rich folks live in neighborhoods filled with similarly wealthy people. The same is true for the poor and the middle classes. This means that the wealthy are far more likely to have their children attend excellent schools than the poor or the middle class. Therefore, priority can often have little to do with the educational differences students experience.
My wife used to teach at a private Jesuit university when she was working on her doctorate, so many of her students went to either private schools or very good public schools. I teach at a state university, and most of my students did not have the same academic background as my wife’s students. When we would look at each other’s papers, we would note there was a marked difference in her students’ papers compared to my students’ papers. These were, by and large, equally bright students, but the wealthier kids did have an advantage. And it was not based upon a valuation of education; it was based on their schooling.
One other point that you raised might well support a different reading than the one you gave. You created the hypothetical where a child with a good sense of entitlement might be more willing to demand recognition for his/her efforts. Might I suggest that a child who has been raised in the environment you described would know that a very large and comfortable safety-net is there for him/her. This, more than audacity or gumption, can give a person the freedom/confidence to strike out for greener pastures. Note that Bill Gates dropped out of college to follow his dream, but his father was a multi-millionaire; this might have made the move easier for him.
I do not begrudge you giving you children what ever you deem appropriate. That is you right as a father. I do think, though, you are reading the facts in a slanted way.
ruckover,
What are you thoughts on the stunning success of first and second generation Asian Americans, who often attended the same disadvantaged schools as African Americans and Latinos?
The schools of the poor and middle class aren’t low performing because of low per pupil spending. Washington DC has among the highest per pupil spending in the country, while also being among the worst school systems. These schools are low performing because the children who attend them come from homes that don’t stress the value of education.
jmo :
If you look at people who grow up poor they tend to stay poor. There are any number of contributing factors – but, a low appreciation for the value of education is found primarily among the disadvantaged.
Perhaps it’s the teachers and other faculty in public schools who should be making 600k a year.
After my soph year (2003) in college, my parents bought my brother and I (we were roommates) a 2001 Impreza 2.5RS. It was my attainable dream car and I absolutely loved it. It was in beautiful shape too. After my junior and senior year of college, the car was dinged and scratched from living in a college town. No matter how much I babied and took care of the car, other people simply didn’t care. Ding after ding, scratch after scratch. Basically, I wouldn’t bother sending my future children to school in anything that I didn’t plan to see a few scratches or dings.
When I opted to get a job as an engineer instead of getting a master’s, my parents requested that I give the 2.5RS back to them for my youngest brother. It was reasonable, IMO. I had no “right” to keep the car because they paid for it. I bought myself an 07 GTI. It is pretty immaculate after 2 years and 40k miles because I no longer live in a college town. Heck, I don’t even obsess over it like my 2.5RS.
I did buy a 50cc Honda Ruckus motorscooter when I was in school. That is the ultimate college ride with 75mpg and free parking all over campus. I had a shortcut through a sorority flowerbed to get past a poorly planned traffic area in town. haha
These were, by and large, equally bright students, but the wealthier kids did have an advantage. And it was not based upon a valuation of education; it was based on their schooling.
If I gave you a random selection of papers from students in the Los Angeles Unified School District, I’m sure you would find that the first and second generation students of Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese decent produced markedly better papers than the students of African America or Latino decent. Despite the fact that they shared the same schools and teachers.
Some would argue that’s due to innate genetic differences. I don’t buy that argument. I think it’s primarily the result of Asian students growing up in homes that, while poor, placed a huge value on academic achievement.
I have to agree with JMO in this. If you can afford it without too much sweat, and the kid is going to want a car anyway, why not buy it for him/her. Maybe I’m spoilt, but if you’re going to a good (expensive) college, working towards an engineering degree or something, what useful lessons are you possibly going to pick up from flipping burgers? And from sitting around bus stops? Much better the kid spend his time hacking on Linux kernels and building bombs and rockets, or at least write control circuitry for keeping the dorm room still running optimally.
Also, newer cars, at least most, are a lot safer than older ones. Buying a 17 year old (or letting him buy) a car without abs, front airbags, stability control and a service plan at least strongly encouraging him/her to take it to the shop to keep tires, brakes and alignment within reason, is plain cruel.
As to BMW 3’s vs. more plebian cars, if there is one thing the self identified “upper classes” are acutely aware of, it is the value of social climbing as a means to better one’s future financial status. At most non commuter schools, the crowd your kid will tend to fall in with, is very different if he shows up in a provided 3 than in an old VW bus paid for by working long hours selling tie dyed shirts out the back. And who you get to know as a result of your college experience can have just as much impact on your future career as what you know. Probably particularly so in the “soft” fields, but even in engineering school if you’re looking for angel money for a startup, or simply a wealthy parent’ed cofounder to keep the company running for awhile while handling the “business side” of things.
Following the above train of thought, and despite this being a car site, I would be leery of giving the kid a “fast” car, unless he is a dedicated car nut / crosser / racer / whatever. Same goes for fast sport bikes. Been there, done that, with the requisite helilifted out of canyon bottoms ex buddies to show for it.
But something like a new or almost so Fit, Prius, Camcord, Malibu or smaller engined 3, TSX, is or A4/C seems like perfectly suitable college cars to me. And with 4 year depreciation / maintenance less than a single year’s worth of tuition at some schools, it’s not like it’s that outrageous a subsidy. That GT on the other hand….
+1 JG I too had Mustangs in my teens and early 20’s I had way too much fun. Now in my 30’s and hugely successful (due to the “entitlement mentality” that my smart co-workers reinforced and fully taking advantage of all training offered) BMW’s are now my car of choice. The entitlement mentality has enabled me to more than double my salary 4 years running and never make less than the year before. Quite an accomplishment I must say given bonuses come and go but as a job-hopper if you select the right company and have the skills you can make $$$ in numerous other ways.
I don’t consider myself too old to have fun with my cars by any means. I just don’t beat the crap out of it like I used to to those old Mustang 5.0’s. I may have to get the 2011 5.0 Coyote Stang for ‘ol times sake!
I had a car in college starting my sophomore year, but only because I went a school in the middle of nowhere that was 700 miles away from where my family lived and they couldn’t bear the idea of driving me out there and back anymore. I actually mostly left it parked though, and only used it for road trips. I walked or biked around campus and town.
My eldest kid is in college now and he doesn’t want a car. His school is only two hours from home, so I have no issues hauling him back and forth.
–chuck
I gave my son a choice: get a job and pay his own way through university, and I would give him a car and free room and board, or, do whatever the hell he wanted to, but if he wished to remain at home he would pay rent equal to that of a bachelor apartment.
Luckily, he chose going to school. He worked two part time jobs and a studied a full course load (he earned the equivalent of a Masters in 5 years). When he graduated he had two degrees and no debt whatsoever. I paid for room and board, gave him a car and paid for all of the extras like books and student fees. It was a satisfactory arrangement.
After he graduated we decided he could afford a new car and we went car shopping. Because he had to work hard for his degrees and appreciated the amount of hard work that went into earning them, he decided that he had earned the right of choice of the car; I agreed and was only along to help in research and with the actual negotiating etcetera.
He got smart in school! He narrowed his choice down to either a Yaris, Fit or Mazda3, and in the end chose the Yaris based on the price and Toyota’s reputation of durability. He spent far less than he could have, and in fact was okayed for as much as $50,000 in a car loan (WTF???). I bought the car, and he paid me back, and owned his car within a year and a half.
He’s now 25, debt free, and still has the Yaris. He’s on the fast track at his job, and expects to reach the level of a company-leased BMW within the next two to three years. I’d say his upbringing and our attitude about something being worth a lot more when you have to pay for it were major contributors to his success.
Oh, and by the way, the car we gave him? A ’92 Dodge Spirit with almost 160,000 kms on the odo. In five years at school and working two jobs he added less than 30,000 kms. He was too damn busy working and too cheap to waste gas.
I am so proud of him.
He’ll be buying his mother a convertible when she turns 55. Because he’ll feel she is entitled. Because he never felt that he was entitled.
jmo – while your comments are borderline troll, I’ll respond. The families that spoiled their children, usually did so as a substitute to responsible parenting. The parents were miserable, their kids were miserable. While wealthy, none of them were happy and they wouldn’t meet my definition of “successful” in that they spent their lives in an empty misery, trying to fill the void with expensive crap. On the other hand, the wealthy families that were good parents, and taught their kids personal responsibility were happier and their children were happier.
That being said, there’s certainly nothing wrong with having a car be a reward for outstanding performance in school. But the idea that you either have to be a selfish prick to get ahead in life or you will be poor is completely ridiculous. For the record, I’m not exactly rich, but I make more money than both my parents combined, and I never had to screw anyone to do it.
While there is no justification for a high school student to drive anything but a beater, there can be justification for a nice car for college. My parents decided that the quality of vehicle they would provide for me was directly related to the amount of scholarships I received. So, between being responsible with my POS ’87 Tempo and getting a nearly full-ride at an out-of-state engineering program “earned” me a new Jeep. So, sure my parents spoiled me with a $20k vehicle, but through hard work I saved them and I around $60k in tuition (this was over 10 years ago, these prices are signifiantly higher now).
But the idea that you either have to be a selfish prick to get ahead in life or you will be poor is completely ridiculous.
“selffish prick” I get where you’re coming from. But, one could consider the opposite of a selfish prick to be someone meek and passive.
Much of what parents do to make their kids meek, passive and obedient as children teaches them to be meek and passive adults who are then exploited by their betters.
A car for college – just another depreciating asset
A love of learning instilled by diligent parents and the experiences they provide through their kids growing years – priceless, except possibly cheaper than many cars.
Many people don’t make the right choice where to invest first.
@ruckover – an engineering prof who worked in a good state U and a prestigious private U noted that the difference in the students attending the two was that in the latter, there was no bottom half of the class. Harder for him to teach in the former.
Come into the blue collar world as a meek and passive adult, I’ll give you a week tops.
I don’t care how many degrees you got or how high you marks are,or how much money your dad has. I got to side with JMO here the blue collars/hard hats will sense the weakness and tear you to pieces. I’ve seen it a thousand times.
@jmo – lol, maybe we’re actually in complete agreement. I remember when I first went to college in nyc and I was completely broke, I went into a very upscale store on 5th ave and bought a $200 belt for myself. It was money that should’ve gone to food or supplies, but I basically got it because I wanted something to remind myself that I wasn’t meant to be poor like my parents. They would never buy anything nice for themselves as it wasn’t considered a waste, but I always felt like that was the attitude holding them down. Raising kids is tough and you have to find a balance, which would lie somewhere between buying them whatever they want and never getting them anything nice. Rewarding hard work and success is always good though. I still have that belt, 20 years later.
@mikey – sounds like a stand up guy; I appreciate your sharing the story.
I received a set of options as well, though remarkably different in some ways;
1) Leave home, and I got his car (Firebird) and the TV.
2) Stay at home, pay rent, he’ll split on tuition (we lived in the country, so I’d need to find transportation).
3) Go away to university (in a city at least 200 miles away), and he’ll pay room and board and we can split on tuition.
I chose #3, but didn’t take proper advantage of the experience by dropping out (albeit because I felt I was wasting my fathers money – and was tired of being a poor student myself). I landed on my feet and started up a software business which I’ve recently sold after a 10 year run; still wish I could have finished school as my parents were disappointed – but I’m saving that now for retirement!
The article seems to disregard the idea that any of the readership are actually high school or college students.
Frowning, grumbly adult “I had it the hard way” perspective aside, I would not have been able to keep two of my summer between-college jobs without a car. If you don’t happen to live in a metropolitan city, public transportation, biking or walking simply may not be options, and they weren’t for me.
I don’t think any high school student deserves a brand new car – they haven’t done enough yet to earn it. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for their parents to provide them with a reliable car – whether it’s given or merely on loan. I was lucky enough to borrow my father’s car, a ’96 3-series, which I proceeded to baby like a Bavarian child. The use of a car helped me immensely in earning money so that I could be self sufficient come the school year.
dolo54,
I have a buddy who just bought a new house with a decent amount of land. The former owner hadn’t done any yard work in 5 years. The place is a mess of branches, overgrown shrubs, poison ivy, it’s a mess. He has a 10 yo son who is desperate for an iPhone. I asked the son – would you be willing to clear all that brush for an iPhone. The kid was like “YES!”.
I told my buddy, “Why don’t you make the offer? If he manages to do it, it will be the best $99 you ever spent.” His response – “No f*ckin way! 10yo with a iPhone – ridiculous.”
It seems the fear of “spoiling” the kids prevents the teaching of a valuable lesson about work and its rewards.
Great thread. As a new parent, I understand the fear of spoiling your kid, but I’m with jmo on this… teaching them the value of hard work or more importantly, excellent results, and rewarding appropriately seems like the better message to send.
I don’t agree with handing a kid keys to a new 3 series even if they got a 5.5 gpa, but I do see rewarding proportionally if the means are there.
I’m already scheming for how to incentivize my 2 yr old to get potty trained.
jmo:
It seems the fear of “spoiling” the kids prevents the teaching of a valuable lesson about work and its rewards.
Or maybe it wasn’t the $99 entry fee for the iPhone that held him back – it was the perpetual bills that would come from a 10-year-old texting everyone he knows and constantly downloading music and apps.
Frank,
I don’t know – 1.5 acres of thorns and poison ivy – it would still money well spent.
I told my buddy, “Why don’t you make the offer? If he manages to do it, it will be the best $99 you ever spent.” His response – “No f*ckin way! 10yo with a iPhone – ridiculous.”
It sounds like you’ve bought the lies that cell phone carriers tell. Assuming that the kid’s iPhone would go on a family plan, the actual cost is $1060 ($100 for the phone + $40/month), excluding taxes.
Brian,
Yes, and $1060 so he can spend his summers napping on the couch, in the AC, with the golf on is worth every penny.
jmo,
From your presence on this topic, clearly today you are not working nor furthering your education!
Oh, speaking of entitled kids who gets 3-series in high school…
I had a crush on this really, really rich beautiful and super nice girl senior year, and it just so happens her parents bought her a new loaded 2008 328i and so we hung out and went shopping in her new ride. I’ll tell you, the moment she got the keys to that car she completely changed into a total snob and entitled brat.
First ten minutes was basically her ranting about all the “poor kids” who only had leased MBs and BMWs, and how she actually paid cash for her car. She’s 16.
Then, she asked, “So what do you drive, romanjetfighter?”
I replied, “Oh, I don’t drive anything.”
Disappointed, she asks, “Then what does your mom drive?”
I told her my mom drove a Toyota Camry.
She gasps excitedly. “OMG, no way! My mom drove one of those too when she was poor. So weird.” The tone insinuated she thought my family was poor. :|
What did she get while we went shopping? 600 dollar pink ballet flats with her mom’s money. Yes, spoiling your children will ruin their character. Buying a 3-series is definitely spoiling them, even if they do have great grades. The girl was a valedictorian, but so what? She became a brat.
The end!
If you buy your kid a 3-series, and they are a good motivated kid that understands why they are receiving it, understand hard work, and realize that they need to work hard to be successful to get another one in the future, I’m all for it.
If your kid just wants a 3-series because “they want one and everybody else has one”, then no, get them a Camry. A used Camry. They are just clones of the spoiled kids you see on TV, so get them a clone car. That way they will have something to bitch about at their emo parties and complain about “how their parent’s just don’t get them”, and “I hate this scrubbed suburban lifestyle”.
You decide.
P.S. Working with high schoolers, chances are you are Case #2. You kid is not the highly motivated angel thats sympathetic to others, works hard, understands effort and success. I’m sorry.
P.S.S. My parents bought me a Saturn for college. Went to the US Air Force Academy, so couldn’t have it. Then I worked hard, and bought a 911. Its better than a Saturn.
I got my driver’s license and bought my first car on my sixteenth birthday, using money I’d earned working at the local pizzeria and on my paper route. My kids on the other hand, despite growing up with a car nut for a dad and a garage full of sports cars (or perhaps because of it), have shown no interest in cars whatsoever, not even bothering to get licenses until they turned 18 so as to avoid having to go through the slightly more stringent limited license procedure.
And no, we didn’t give them rides, they simply opted to walk, ride their bikes, take the bus or bum rides from others. As my older son says, “In a world of drivers and passengers, I’m a passenger.”
What’s fascinating to me is that while both guys and their friends are very different from each other, what all of these 18-22 year olds have in common is an almost complete lack of enthusiasm for automobiles. Not that they have anything against them on environmental, political or any other grounds, just that they’re not worth bothering about.
My wife’s a high school guidance counselor and she’s noticed the same thing. She can’t give away an internship with a firm that restores classic sports and race cars; when I was in high school if there had been such a thing as an internship, guys would have been lined up around the block to sign up for something like that.
So, if my experience is any guide, regardless of who pays for it, boring, cheap and reliable will satisfy the contemporary high school/college student. Maybe a hatch to make it easier to wedge in a bass amp.
If anything, it will be Mom, not junior, who will care about her baby getting a newer, nicer car, since newer means less chance of a scary breakdown and more airbags and electronic nannies.
As to the reasons why, see P.J. O’Rourke.
jmo,
exactly right–some students from poor backgrounds do amazingly well, and, as you have noted, there is often a cultural component to who succeeds. Please notice that this goes against the claim that poor people do not value education. Some poor people do, and some poor people do not. And, as you stated, many first and second generation Asian American students do very well, for many immigrants see education as a way to succeed in their new homelands. You state that these students go to the same schools as other poor people who do not do well, and that is correct, but many of those top-tier students are getting help from outside of school: tutors, study groups, language immersion programs. All of this is exceptional, and I think it is wonderful, but their success is more in-spite of their school than because of their school.
African American have a very different history with education. Remember that African Americans were often kept out of schools across the country until the recent past. Some places shut down public education after Brown v. Board of Education instead of letting African American go to school in “white schools.” And, until recently, African Americans have had a difficult time getting management/professional positions. In response to this, many in that community have turned their backs on education, and they have even chastised those who work hard in school for “acting white.” They turned away from education as a response to their frustrations caused by living in a system that would not allow them to get ahead. By not playing the game, they can not see themselves as the losers. They set up parallel values, values that do not include education. I understand the actions, though I see them as outrageously self-defeating.
About the amount of money spent per pupil–do any of us think that the amount spent per pupil equals the quality of the education. Most private schools pay their teachers less than public schools, so clearly we cannot make a dollar to dollar comparison. I simply said that schools in poorer neighborhoods tend to be of lesser quality than schools in wealthier neighborhoods.
really, really rich beautiful and super nice girl senior year… The girl was a valedictorian, but so what? She became a brat.
I just think that this kind of attitude can really hold people back.
In Australia they call it “Tall Poppy Syndrome”. In the Netherlands they say something like “If you’re born a nickle you’ll never become a quarter.” It’s the idea that when people achieve success it corrupts them…
ruckover,
but their success is more in-spite of their school than because of their school.
If you kept everything the same and simply bused the kids from from Oakland to Palo Alto and the Palo Alto kids to Oakland – the Oakland kids would continue to struggle and the Palo Alto kids would continue to thrive.
I’m not sure how much even the best schools can do to overcome parents who are ambivalent toward academic achievement or even hostile to it.
and they have even chastised those who work hard in school for “acting white.”
Among lower class whites there is the idea that doing well in school makes you a “dork” or a “nerd” or “gay”. That attitude does a lot to keep the poor and working class down.
but they were able to establish their own merits throughout life despite having something a little nice given to them before college. Rewarding good work in this respect is not really a bad thing.
Let me just say I know for sure you are not Irish. To quote Angela’s Ashes ‘A happy childhood is practically wasted.’
A car for a college-aged son? NEVER. A college-aged daughter, yes, but only for safety purposes. That being said, I remember when I was in college some young lass rolled the new car her parents got her on the university’s Ring Raoad, a feat akin to falling to your death while sleeping on the couch.
Yes, buy your kids a new car. Working is a waste of time that could be better used partying. I worked my way through school, though I did have help. My mom gave me a 7 year old K car with an auto on its last legs that she could have got maybe $800 for, and I appreciated it immensely. However, I paid for my rent, my food, my gas, my books, my tuition, etc. It took me six years to get a degree, but I got it. The funny thing is, I’ve enjoyed life so much after my college years, that I never feel like I’ve got it bad. Not even for the few years that I was “underemployed” or the year that I was unemployed. I still had food and shelter, and I was thankful for it. I see too many bums out there who have their parents still providing for them and defending the tough breaks Johnny or Jane has had to endure. Parents like this are not doing their children or society any favors.
JMO, a new car has nothing to do with success, it is the child’s (in college most are still children) attitude that makes the biggest difference in their long-term success financially and otherwise. Parents need to provide their children with morals not material goods.
Maybe I’m spoilt, but if you’re going to a good (expensive) college, working towards an engineering degree or something, what useful lessons are you possibly going to pick up from flipping burgers? And from sitting around bus stops?
I learned how to deal with people, how to budget, and what the source of true happiness is (it isn’t a 54″ TV, an iphone, etc.). I worked for several fast food restaurants while growing up, and I got my degree in Chemical Engineering (no, I won’t teach you how to make high explosives or drugs). But, once I got an engineering job, it was the lessons I learned flipping burgers that have helped me the most. Catering to the customer’s needs while meeting the company’s long term objectives and working with others aren’t learned in the halls of academia, they are learned in business, any business if you care to learn.
Working is a waste of time that could be better used partying.
You’re setting up a false dichotomy. Those not working often times are able to pursue unpaid internships or take classes during the summer and graduate early or earn a duel degree. These activities can often prevent the “few years that I was “underemployed” or the year that I was unemployed.”
The idea that anything that doesn’t kill you just makes you stonger, is just a myth.
JMO’s posts have got to be a joke, right?
Like Jack Baruth’s post about the Prius, I may be using a bit of hyperbole to illustrate my point.
When I went to college a car made sense, I was going halfway across the country, to a small town that was at least two hours from an airport. They insisted on two things; that the car be new, and that the make had dealer presence within the county.
It also helped that I had been working for the past 3 summers, was in the top 5-10% of my class, placed out of most of the Freshman year courses and earned $15000 a year in scholarship money.
I wouldn’t see any problem getting my kid a new car to drive to college but I wouldn’t go overboard. These days you can get a pretty roomy sedan or hatch with decent mileage and safety ratings even in the lower end of the market.
The idea that anything that doesn’t kill you just makes you stonger, is just a myth.
I never said anything, but some things do make you stronger. Physical labor would be one. As long as the child is willing to learn (one job of a parent is to instill a learning attitude), he will learn much from doing for himself rather than relying on others.
p.s. My school didn’t offer a degree in duelling; as a matter of fact, guns were prohibited on campus. ;-)
I suppose most of you are older than me. This “earn your own car by working at McDonald’s” mentality probably work right after WW2. But now that things changed.
It’s been too long since there was a great war. As a result, entrepreneurial opportunities are diminishing and wealth concentrates.
It no longer makes sense to ask a kid to start with nothing. Yeah, I know, you started with no money yourself. But when you started, there were more opportunities and the living expense (especially house) were low, even adjusted with inflation.
Where I bought my first car (new Civic) when I was in graduate school, my Dad paid $8000 for me.
I think this is a working model that I will adopt. I will give my kids (they don’t exist, yet) a lump sum. Not too much, but enough for a reliable used car. They can choose to put down some of their own money to upgrade to something better. If he wants a Ferrari, fine, but know that I will pay $10k only (adjusted for car buying inflation).
Oh yeah, now that I know the real purpose of education is to interact will your peers and learn people skills. As for academics, well, there’s Google ;) Seriously, it’s no big deal. I wasted too much time making it a big deal.
he will learn much from doing for himself rather than relying on others.
I think many of us, myself included, would like to think that our privations served some purpose. If we came from families that were disadvantaged, perhaps due to a preference for leisure, poor impulse control or low academic ability, on the part of our parents, we wish to feel that our experiences served some purpose.
Since we suffered, so should our children suffer, for we must have been made to suffer for some reason. We must have learned some valuable lesson. The idea that if things had been better, we would have been happier, is difficult for many to take.
ok ok ok . . . all of this talk about what it will do to your kid if you buy a car for he/she/it at 16 or 18 or 20 assumes that it’s really going to do something to them. There are so many other factors involved that there is no way to say a car purchase is going to change your kids character. good or bad.
In another vein, if it has an affect, the result will vary from person to person.
Some kids will thrive on being given things by their parents because it makes them feel entitled to a raise when they excel in their jobs. Others will be fired because they show up late every day and spend the day posting on TTAC, yet feel entitled to a pay check.
Likewise, some kids will learn the value of hard work and the satisfaction of providing for themselves by having to earn everything. Others will suffer for having been unable to apply themselves fully to school.
The point is kids are different. Some may be able to handle/benefit from having to work for their first car. Others might need the affirmation that they are entitled to nice things and the extra time to study.
Who says that if you don’t feel entitled that you have to be meek and a push-over? There is a difference between thinking that you deserve something and earning it. Entitlement is not a positive term last time I checked.
Again, I just finished reading the book “The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement” and the book points to the sense of entitlement as playing a pretty big role in the current financial crisis.
There is nothing wrong with being driven and wanting great things for yourself. If you work hard towards that end then it is something that you earned not something you are entitled to.
While it’s true that growing up in a poor environment will be a hinderance to a great education, if the individual wants it enough they can get it. Those who grow up in a wealthy environment might not value the education and much as it’s expected that the go to college, and coming from a wealthy background certainly helps those who loafed through college start on a great career track. It’s the upbringing and the individual that creates the desire to become educated.
In frsehman year, 2002, one of my dormmates got an M3. Brand new. He was still learning stick on it. I was greener than the grass on the quad for a week…a freshman with a $55,000 sports car all to himself! He said his dad simply said, “You’re only young once.”
I biked everywhere. My 3rd year, I got the family mazda MPV and a under-the-table part time job at a nearby engine warehouse for gas money. I kept my total expenses to about $100 a week on average, after rent, books and tuition.
My parents were adamant about cutting the fat and learning frugality. I’m infinitely thankful they helped me out with what the grants didn’t cover so by the time I was out, I had zero debt. On top of that, they offered to match my down payment on a new car. Needless to say, that taught me how to save (as if being a college student hadn’t taught me that)
Areitu,
I went to school with people like that and I was always curious about those kind of dads. What was their secret? Were they just smarter, harder working, more entrepreneurial, more ambitious, more generous, more prudent, luckier?
I mean, someone who was in a position to buy his kid a $55,000 car and pay full tuition might have lessons to teach that are more valuable than ” cutting the fat and learning frugality.”
I even asked a friend – “How is it that your parents are able to come up with 70k a year to pay for school for you and your brother?” He said, “Oh, when we were born dad set up an UGMA account.” “UGMA?:” I asked. “Universal Gift to Minors Act.” “Oh….” I said.
He mentioned those had been supplanted by 529 plans.
I learned an intersting lesson that day, some people start saving for things as soon as they know they are going to happen. Indeed, the sooner you start saving the less you have to save per month.
I’m already scheming for how to incentivize my 2 yr old to get potty trained.
Go to dollar store, get one of those plastic jugs. Let daughter roam around a little to see all the cool stuff. Let her know this is where she can spend her potty money.
Go home and you two (or the whole family) decorate the “potty bank”. Place in bathroom. Successful pottying = 50 cents. Works like magic in super short time (for girls at least!!! Boys – whenever THEY’RE ready). Plus the potty bank can become an heirloom.
On point, until I bought my first new car some time after college, I got the wretched, wore-out hand-me-downs from my parents (but I had to pay at least a minimal sales ‘fee’).
As we approach Father’s Day – I miss ya Dad!
Lumbergh21,
I’m sure you are right that you’ll learn something from such a job. Hailing from a less fast food intensive country, I instead spent a few summers working at the goods receiving dock in a huge state run hospital. And I can’t honestly say I learned nothing. But still, diminishing returns starts setting in pretty quickly in repetitive jobs like that, and I simply can’t see how spending up to 20 hours a week throughout high school and college on something that tangential to ones planned future, is the best use of one’s time.
The idea that kids ‘should earn their way’, seems somewhat similar to the one that holds calculators and computers make math too easy. Both rest on the assumption that there is something inherently noble in self imposed hardship. But in the same way Mathematica on a nice computer enables one to reach higher than if all drudgery had to be performed manually, those extra 20 weekly hours of free time enable college kids to reach for other things; like doing extra coursework (even starting a PhD early), unpaid internships, community service, playing in a band, playing poker (Or blackjack, I guess, if you’re at MIT and have a knack for it) etc., etc.
Somewhat abstractly, I don’t think attempting to have kids work on already solved problems are the best use of their college years at expensive schools. If you’re from the US upper middle class or above, things like having a decent late model car is little different than having a pair of pants was a few generations ago. How to obtain them is a problem solved by earlier generations. By now, it’s just something that’s there; like calculators, computers, cell phones, European vacations and the internet. The less time spent considering what they cost and how to obtain them, the more time available for more interesting pursuits.
That being said, things are different when kids get cars that typecasts them as being amongst the “rich” kids at their school, especially if the parents make a big deal about it as well. Like that 3 driving high school bimborina in the above post. Or getting a car that’s unusually “fast”, like that M3. As college is supposed to be predominantly about learning, buying kids stuff that saddles them with a distinctly different set of social expectations is unlikely to be helpful.
But if your kid goes to a school where a 3 is fairly common, which includes quite a few schools by know, especially amongst the girls, I can’t see anything all that negative about giving one’s daughter, or son, one.
Great points JMO!! Attitude affects ability. Confidence breeds success. Humble submission breeds a life of hard work… at best.
The concept that we are all born equal is pure B.S. We’re not. Believing that you can sit on your ass, learn nothing, read nothing, do nothing and still be just as “equal” as someone that actually works at improving themselves is just fantasy. The fact that we let ignorant people vote is one of the fundamental flaws that has destroyed our country… because the ignorant outnumber the intelligent by a large margin.
Here’s a wrench to throw into the mix –
I’m a 17 year old enrolling in UC Berkeley in the fall. I’ve been a straight A student in high school, have been in the band program for years, and scored well on the SAT’s. As a result of my hard work I was given a $120,000 scholarship to study mechanical engineering at UC Berkeley, which is the entire cost of attendance (tuition, room + board, travel) for 4 years.
Just this year my older sister graduated from Stanford debt-free because my parents paid $48,000 per year so that she wouldn’t have to get a job. Now she’s asking for them to buy her a used car and take over insurance costs because she has no money and needs to commute to her job.
Should I feel entitled to asking for a car? I don’t know. I told them I don’t need a car and am planning on getting a motorcycle license after I enroll.
My parents have a slightly different viewpoint. When I got my license, my dad had enough cars that there was one for me to drive at all times, but I paid my insurance and half my gas (they supposedly paid for commuting to school, etc, while I paid for the gas I used to do stuff I wanted to do). When I turned 18, I got to pay for all my gas.
My dad even let me take the car up to Ohio State for Spring quarter this last year. Unfortunately, it’s not going back up unless I buy it from him. So, I’m currently keeping my eyes out for a nineties Volvo station wagon, preferably with a third row and a manual, which is pretty rare combination. I’d rather spend $1500 on something I really want than just the one car out of my dad’s fleet that he wants rid of.
I was given a $120,000 scholarship
If you’re a responsible parent you are putting away $500 a month per child to ensure you have the resources to pay for their education.
If you were my son, I would say that if you are able to land a scholarship you are entitled to the money I put away for your education.
cwmoo740,
First, congratulations! It takes a dedicated, determined student to land a full scholarship at UCB. Parking in and around campus is a real bother (I went to Santa Clara and when I landed a choice parking spot, I did not want to give it up thus negating the point of having a car!). Why not see how you do the first year car-free or with the MC or with a Zipcar?
Next year, if you feel you must have a car, your sister should have enough for a down payment on another car and your parents can request/demand she give you her old one.
Good luck!
I bought my son a 2500$ ’86 528e to go to school with 150 miles distant. It lasted until he graduated, then I gave to #2 son who drove for another 3 yrs.
Wolven,
no one thinks everyone is equal, but there is the idea that we all possess rights equally.
Would you mind telling me how we choose who is too ignorant to vote (ignoring that this was deemed un-constitutional, but I am sure you are not ignorant of that; you are just saying that it would be better if there was some limit to who gets to participate in representational democracy). I have four college degrees, so do I get to declare that ignorant people are those with fewer than three degrees? I have studied three languages, but a friend of mine is fluent in five and can get by in two more, so do I lose the vote for this lack of language skills? I know many people who have higher IQs than I do, though they might have fewer degrees, so do I again lose the vote because of my IQ?
Ruckover,
Good points and questions. My method of determining who was too ignorant to vote would be some sort of test, kinda like an SAT mixed with an IQ test or something. EVERYONE takes the test when they turn 18 (voting age). The top 51 percent of Americans get to vote. The lower 49 percent don’t. As new people score in the upper 51 percentile, they bump the borderline people down into the lower 49 percent, and consequently they lose the right to vote. Everyone can take the test again ONCE each year if they want to try to move up. Those that seek to improve themselve WILL move up, the blissfully ignorant wont.