TTAC commentator Detroit-Iron writes:
I am in the process of buying a new car (despite Steven Lang’s admonitions). I would like to get a 2009 after the 2010’s come out, maybe a Legacy or Ralliart. My problem is that there is zero information on the specific month that a given manufacturer is going to release the 10s. I can understand the manufacturers and dealers wanting to keep that info under wraps considering the inventory but I would think that a journalist or consumer advocate would have it, but I can’t find anything.
One more item: did TTAC ever get a figure for the percentage of Boxsters that had their engines die? Were any years better or worse than others? I came very close to buying one until I found out about that.
Sajeev answers:
I have friends in the car business (who aren’t car people, per se) and I am amazed at their isolation from the operational activities of their respective manufacturers. While The Best and Brightest might disagree, dealer communication channels seem inferior to the rich tapestry of corporate information that “we” get on the automotive blogosphere. Aside from the release date of 2010 models, of course.
Speaking of friends, I grabbed a Porsche Tech from a local dealer for your second question. That’s mostly because I didn’t find conclusive information on Boxster engine problems from Google and Forum searching. It seems like Porsche owners prefer to not air their dirty laundry, unlike damn near any other brand loyalist.
So here’s the scoop, in plain English: the first three years (1997-1999) had cylinder sleeve problems that lead to engine failure. The inventory of Epic Fail engine blocks ran out after 1999. Which is exactly what Wikipedia says on the matter. After that, the only problem (I found) was a leaky rear main seal: Porsche made a redesigned seal, and said Porsche Tech says it’s a good fix.
Of course, my answer is to buy an original Boxster with a blown motor for cheap. Then do a RUF-style big-bore Boxer upgrade from a wrecked 997.
No wait, that’s not ME talking: I suggest spending less (in parts) and get a complete LS4 from a (transverse engine’d) Impala SS, a custom bellhousing adapter from one of many fabricators on the Internet, and re-wire the hell outta that little Porker for unbelievable amounts of mid-corner torque. Now that’s a spicy meatball!
[Send your technical queries to mehta@ttac.com]
I have worked in the car business for 3 years, and yes it is amazing the lack of interest in the general auto business most people in dealerships have, but also the lack of info sent down to the dealers about upcoming models, release dates, etc.. All we get is maybe an email saying when the first allocation order for the new models is, then after we order, the cars show up when they show up. A car might as well be a toaster to most of the people in car dealerships.
I was under the impression (from this site actually) that a lot of fairly recent model Porsches (Boxsters and 911s) had some form of internal engine rod that was bolted together and that would almost certainly eventually fail somewhere around 60,000 miles, destroying the internals of the engine.
NulloModo, I believe this is the info you are referring to:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wild-ass-rumor-of-the-day-porsche-boxster-engine-failures/
Sorry, but you’re wrong about the problem having gone away..
I have a client with a 2005 Boxster. Parked every winter. This season, on start up, the engine blew smoke big time. Diagnosis?
Another cracked block. Proceedings in court at this time, after the Porsche dealer just shrugged.
I was under the impression (from this site actually) that a lot of fairly recent model Porsches (Boxsters and 911s) had some form of internal engine rod that was bolted together and that would almost certainly eventually fail somewhere around 60,000 miles, destroying the internals of the engine.
That is the internet for you. BS gets churned around so much that people will believe it. There is no internal bolted engine rod that will kill the motor at 60k miles. Just look at autotrader at the number of Boxsters and 911s with over 60k miles for sale.
Just the intermediate shaft, the cylinder liners, the too porous blocks, the out of true cylinder bores, rear main seals….did I forget anything? It was the cylinder liner that got my Boxster. Took it to Rusnak too. Everyone there was pretty nice to me, but very closed lipped about the problems with these cars. Couldn’t get a straight answer from anyone there, or from Porsche USA either. In the end Porsche and Rusnak did right by me and I got a new engine for 1.5k out of my pocket, but they never admitted these cars had a problem. Felt like the lawyers told them to keep their mouths shut. Then my friend’s Boxster had a engine failure, he was not treated so well. I was going to get another Porsche until I realized that my new engine might have the same problems. So I got an Infiniti instead. That’s 2 sales I know that Rusnak lost…not that it will make any difference. There are plenty of people with lots of money where we are who will keep buying porsches…
Reference the M96 engine problem in Boxsters, Caymans, and normally aspirated 911’s, the following quote is from Excellence, May 2009, p. 24, answer to a letter to Tech Line:
“When the Boxster and 996 were relatively new cars and the M96’s problems were not yet understood, rumors suggested that up to 50 percent of the cars were going to experience failure. Porsche addressed the problems and, today, I am hearing the number of cars that have had or will have a problem is closer to 20 percent, or one in five.”
The major M96 engine article is in Excellence, December 2008, pages 161-168.
Do you feel lucky?
Ahh, the IMS (InterMediate Shaft) failure. Percentages are unclear, but there sure are a lot of reports and youtube videos complete with the sickening sounds of failed motors.
Read the (beginning) travails of someone who thought “That’s just churned up internet BS, it could never happen to me.”
http://www.porscheenginefailure.com/
I even went down to Park Place Porsche and talked to a service advisor and was told it was no big deal and the internet was making a MUCH bigger deal out of it than it actually was. I can trust the dealer right???
Well, I was wrong on all accounts.
In warranty Porsche seems to be handling this well. Out of warranty, owners are reportedly getting the non-intermediate shaft.
Pricing for the 2010 Legacy and Outback is out, so the cars should be arriving at dealers soon, if they’re not there already.
Rusnak_322: Cars can still be sold after an engine self-destructs. They just get new engines first.
Also realize that “common” failures rarely affect anywhree near 100% of all cars. People like to oversimplify in this way, but the reality is that something that fails in even 10 percent of all cars will seem “common” on a forum with hundreds of members. You can’t say “I know of ten cars without this problem, so it’s not common” or “I know of ten cars with this problem, so it must happen to all of them.”
TrueDelta is in the process of building reliability stats on the Boxster. It’s a matter of building a large enough group of participants, and participating for a long enough time–done the right way it doesn’t happen overnight.
About our research:
http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php
Rusnak_22
I’d guess that the internal engine rod referred is the intermediate shaft. I have a 2007 Cayman S and it has 82kmiles and 4 1/2 years left on the CPO warranty. After haunting the boards, I’ve decided on just a few things. 1) change from 0W-40 oil to 5W-40 (always Porsche approved so they can’t wiggle out on that) 2) change it every 7K miles 3) don’t baby it – one theory is that running in the range where the variocam can’t settle down puts more strain on the IMS. Plus for the commuting I do, I’d hardly ever get out of second gear.
What Porsche did with these engines is to upgrade the bearings. The failure pix I looked at showed bad pitting which may have been from the ridiculous 20K oil change interval originally specified – fuel contamination and water contamination is deadly to bearings. I may sell the thing with a couple of years left on the CPO warranty, although my preference is to drive it as long as I did my 964 variant C4 – 14 years. Have to see what develops.
L&n Engineering has good info on the IMS problem as well as a fix- http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html
The 996 and 986 Boxsters had mainly Rear Main Seal and the Intermediate Shaft failures – was not aware of the cylinder sleeve problems. These still did continue into the 997 and 987 model ranges but much less problematic.
Several new Spec Porsche venues starting up include Spec Boxster and Spec 996 due to how cheap these cars can be had.
. . . the ridiculous 20K oil change interval originally specified . . .
This is to the 21st century what planned obsolescence was to the 20th century. The companion piece is the bit about service being “free” (i.e. included in the purchase price) during all or most of the warranty period.
The consumer ends up doing oil change services according to the dash board reminder (it’s free!). This means that many cars will have only 2-4 oil changes during the warranty period. Some significant percentage of cars change hands during or shortly after the warranty period (sold used or lease returns). Even if the new owner switches to more reasonable oil change intervals, the additional wear caused during the first 36-50k miles has already been done and increases odds of an earlier failure. Conveniently, this failure happens outside the warranty period, and frequently to someone other than the original owner. The manufacturer washes their hands and the dealer rakes in the bucks on expensive repairs. $5,000 for a new engine is a tough pill to swallow, but it beats junking a car that still has a street value of 20-40 grand or more.
Pricing for the 2010 Legacy and Outback is out, so the cars should be arriving at dealers soon, if they’re not there already.
They’re at my local dealer, though the Legacy is selling pretty quickly. Their initial shipment of Legacys was Limiteds with the CVT; Outbacks were base and Premium, all with the CVT.
Get a Spec B if you can, you’ll be much happier, unless you want to get a Ralliart, deal with the meh interior and replace the tires (I hear they suck).
The Intermediate Shaft failure, no matter how rare, is an engineering defect.
Excellence was expected.
Johnny Canada
The Intermediate Shaft failure, no matter how rare, is an engineering defect.
True, but that’s not crux of the problem for me. The lack of case to cylinder head o-rings on my 964 was a defect too and so was the pre-LUK dual mass flywheel failure. When the hydraulic damping fluid in that flywheel leaked, it took the clutch with it. And there was a main seal leak that started the whole thing. Nonetheless, you still had the feeling Porsche was doing it’s best, given the resources of a company that only built and sold 5000 cars the year that 964 was built. I don’t get the feeling today that they are doing their best. Good-enough-edness is expected. If I could dial back a year before I bought the Cayman S, I’d be looking for a 993 C2 with 4-7k miles per year on it.
chuckR:
….or, you could be looking for a 2001 or later turbo. They don’t have the same block, are allegedly extremely reliable, and have just fallen below the $40k barrier.
@bucksnort:
Well, yes. But I’d rather look for a GT3 than a turbo.
In the 2009 CR annual auto issue, on major engine problems, the 2005 Boxster gets a black mark (which just means it’s “much worse than average,” and at least 3% have to have a major engine problem. The 04 911 has a black mark. For the boxster, 06-07 have the red dot (much better than average, 03 has the semi red dot (better than average) and there is not enough info for 04 and 08. The 9-11 also has full red dots for 06-07, and not enough info for 08, or 03. The boxster is a recommended used cars for the years with th red dots.
@Rusnak_322:
As in Rusnak Porsche in Pasadena??
http://rusnak-pasadena.porschedealer.com/
chuckR:
Good luck finding a GT3 for under $40k. I was carefully plotting the prices of 5-7 year old 996’s when the M96 article came out in Excellence. All search activity stopped. It took me a while to figure out the turbos where the only recent models that did not have the M96 engine problem…so search is starting all over again. The “base” turbo’s handling is a little different and I don’t really need the higher speed on the mountain roads where I live but it is still a Porsche. Am just waiting for the 2002 or so prices to fall a little lower.
I have already seen online references to the 1999-2008 M96 engine cars as the “lost decade.”
@bucksnort
If I had some bread I could have a ham sandwich if I had some ham.
If I ever were serious about a GT3, it would either be a lot more $ or aged for a bit more years, although 993 prices are holding up quite nicely, dammit, so I expect the GT3 prices will also.
If you want a Legacy, now seems to be the time. They are going for pretty cheap at least around here. Legacy’s are leasing for $199/month zero down, no idea on the purchase price, but that’s Impreza price territory. If you wait to long, you might not have the same selection of ’09s. When I leased my ’07 Impreza in May of ’07, they only had black ones left.
Thanks everyone. I think I am going to wait a couple years and see how the next gen engine turns out.
I would like to get a 2009 after the 2010’s come out, maybe a Legacy or Ralliart.
I am suprised that the dealers can’t tell you when they can’t order 09s and will be able to order ’10s.
Anyways I looked at a Ralliart a few months ago before I bought a WRX, and even then I was told Mitsu had already stopped making them. So the chance of getting the color and options I would want was nil. The dealer could have been BS-ing but they were really trying to sell me, they were willing to ship in a white one for me from out of state, I think they would have been willing to get me a new one if they could.
You are much better off with the Legacy, they are at the end of the model run, so the ’09 should go down in value, except for the fact that it appears to be a better car than the ’09 but the general public probably won’t figure that out. Though you might check out the WRX if you are in the market for a Ralliart. The Subaru dealers don’t seem to be hurting to sell cars this year, their sales are up.