Thaddeus writes:
I’m looking to build more in depth automotive knowledge, and I think that (re) building a motor in my Manhattan apartment is a great first step. (Wife be damned.) With the hot summer coming around, and no vacation days left, this would also be a great summer hobby to keep me inside and cool.
I’m currently thinking about finding an old Ford flathead, as know how, and books on these is readily available–do you have a better suggestion? I’m looking for a block that’s well documented, has parts, or spares to be had, and won’t require a CompSci degree to fix or tune . . .
The end state of this project is to put it into some sort of hotrod, but that’s another question–for when I have a bigger apartment.
PS: Sub question…should I even attempt to fire this thing up inside if I get it built?
Sajeev answers:
And I thought I was nuts for making a mess in my apartment’s kitchen after rebuilding a set of power window motors. Wow, just wow.
And with that, consider me your enabler. But I’d recommend something that’s less of a dinosaur and makes more power, more efficiently. Get a small-block Chevy or Ford V8 instead. These motors have plenty of documentation, more available parts in the aftermarket or junkyards, and I betcha everything is far cheaper than the niche flathead market. The only downside to going Small Block V8 is the relative complexity of an OHV motor versus the valve-in-block design of a flathead. But I think it’s worth it.
Since I am single and somewhat proud of it, I’ll let the B&B tackle your “married guy starting an engine in a Manhattan apartment” idea.
Troll.
Fire it up!
But make sure you have the moving van nearby.
Skip the engine. Start with a motorcycle. You’ll get engine, brakes, suspension, drive train, all of that. You’ll be able to get parts, completed components and all that up-and-down your elevators/stairs as needed. You’ll get to experience plating, powdercoating, paint, etc.
Just make sure the motor is delivered in a box that says “range” on it. And give the Super $100.
How do you plan on moving it outside once it’s built? Hoist from the balcony? Great project though, any wife who agrees to such an undertaking is a keeper.
me too on the troll vote.
Lets send him to Summit Racing for a free catalog.
And build out the 450 sq feet of available living space with garage furniture from Griots garage.
There are probably some very very interesting candidate vehicles sitting in $100,000 parking spots in Manhattan, collecting yet another decade of dust, right now
Rod Panhard has the only semi-practical suggestion. A V8 is going to be too heavy to get it out of the apartment. I’m not sure how much a motorcycle weighs, but definitely less.
Weight depends on the motorcycle. Guess 400-600 lbs. Possible a lot more if you get into cruisers.
The main problem with motorcycles is length. You’d need one that you could get down the elevator.
The GM LS series V8s (my personal favorite) weigh 400-450 lbs without a transmission.
I don’t know the situation for cruisers, but if you choose to go with a motorcycle, steer clear of sport bikes as a first project. Even my dinosaur of an ’85 Ninja 900R has proven to be more than I can chew as a first project (3 years in the works, $1500, cylinder head off 3 times, and it still literally spits oil out of the exhaust. I haven’t even begun to address non-engine-related issues like the leaking $500 radiator or brittle and stripped wiring harness). Room to work is cramped, things are somewhat delicate, 16 valve engines take longer to do any head work on, and most importantly: parts cost a fortune. A new brake rotor costs at least $250 (there are 3 of them), valves go for about $30 each (usually 16 of them), I just bought a rear shock for my TL at $700… and the list goes on…
As for starting an old, carburated engine indoors: forget it. Even if you ignore the fact that an unmuffled engine will shake the walls, the amount of black smoke and general fumes the thing will emit is going to get the fire department after you. One spring I fired up my bike in a two-car garage with the doors open, and it was enough to set off the fire alarm within a minute or two.
Being cool while working on an engine in your living room?!?
Are you out of your mind. If you aren’t too hot or cold and in some dusty garage, then you aren’t fixing a car.
My suggestion would be to get a garage somewhere, and then go there to work on the engine.
Otherwise, take up another hobby, like spending too much time writing idiotic posts on car websites (Robert, is it against the rules to flame yourself?).
At age 14 I and a friend bought a 1937 ford V8 60 hp from the local junk yard. This is a small version of their 85 hp. Pulled it home in a small red wagon. We got it down the basement steps and for the next 3 weeks tried to get it started. We never did get to hear the music come out of those exhaust manifolds and so we reversed the process back to the yard where the owner gave us a full refund. This had to be the best junk yard ever. I like the MC idea.
I’d second the bike notion and push it one step further – particularly if you want this to be a first engine learning experience.
Get an old moped. My advice would be a Tomos. You can probably find a basketcase for next to nothing, total weight is about 100#, and fits in an elevator easily. But best of all they’re pretty friendly machines to work on, well documented, parts are cheap, and you’ll get all the carburetor-tweaking love and experience you want. Plus, when you want to fire it up you can do so inside without a problem – hell, you can even drive it in circles inside if you want!
Plus, when you’re done you can use it to blast around the city and park on sidewalks, or sell it for an easy profit and move up to something bigger. And presumably the wife will find it far more endearing than a V8 in the living room – and successful completion might grant you license to move up to something bigger…
Either way, good luck and congrats on choosing such a noble endeavor for the summer!
I would just like to add that, no, I’m not a troll. Maybe a bit of a lurker, but definitely not a troll.
Thanks though.
A Ford flathead 59 series weighs about 600#, which isn’t an unmanageable weight, though admittedly unwieldy.
I do like the motorcycle idea, and have considered it before, but…wife is nervous about motos in general (education campaign to come) and traffic in NYC not hospitable to novice (me) motorcycle riders.
And part of this whole scheme is the ability to say that I did it afterwords…
Thaddeus
If you’re looking for a small, light, classic automobile engine with loads of aftermarket support, why not an old VW flat-4? Then, when you get bored of rebuilding the carbs, you can megasquirt it.
I’d start with a bike engine.
You can go super high tech (modern technology) and light weight… lots of power/cc or not if you want a bike engine the size of a car engine that says “potato-potato”.
Or go nuts… give a rotary a whirl. I’ve got some gigs worth of DIY video on how to assemble a wanker engine.
@Johnny Ro:
Lets send him to Summit Racing for a free catalog
Naw, let’s send ‘im to J.C. Witless for a never-ending avalanche of free catalogues.
(Wife be damned.)
First, get a good divorce attorney. That said, my college roommate rebuilt his VW engine in the dorms, three times. I guess he didn’t do a very good job :).
Building up a V-8 in the apartment seems just silly. Like others have said, how are you going to get the thing in and out of there?
This might be the most practical suggestion:
http://www.amazon.com/Hawk-scale-Ford-Flathead-model/dp/B000UIKT7Q
Or this classic:
http://boxwrench.3dcartstores.com/The-Visible-V8-Engine-Kit_p_0-19.html
People: this website is TTAC, not TTAM. Not that I hate crotch rockets, but I’ve got a car advice column to run here! (kidding)
T: After more consideration, does your place have a freight elevator? Rolling engine stands are the way to go, and those dimensions look freight elevator friendly.
If you have deep pockets and really want to build something special, I’d recommend the stand, a small block Chevy, and THIS book as mandatory reading. Which really means something coming from a S.B.F./5.0 nut like me.
Gosh. this is really something. If you want a simpler engine, either a Citroen 2cv, or an old Beetle. I’d recommend simple in a manhattan apt.
A friend rebuilt a beetle when she was 16.
A Frenchman spent 15 years building a 1/3 scale ferrari from scratch. You can probably bring that up with a little googling. this was recent.
I think that (re) building a motor in my Manhattan apartment is a great first step. (Wife be damned.)
You are in for a surprise.
On the other hand, it could make for an interesting reality show…one that ends in murder.
I also strongly urge you to try a motorcycle. I’ve rebuilt several early 80’s Suzuki bikes and one ’62 Ford Thunderbird. Trust me, until you have a garage, go with the bike.
I agree with the motorcycle idea and the bug. I had a cool wife that was a bit of a gearhead. In 1991 she wanted a motorcycle, and bought one tha she thought was in good shape while I was at work. Boy did it need work (borderline basket case). So in the interest of safety and reliability, I taught her motorcycle maintenace. With my assistance, and a Clymer manual she stripped the bike to the frame and rebuilt it. She rode that bike till 1998 and sold it for a bigger touring bike.
In 1995 she wanted to learn about cars and purchaced a 1971 VW bus with a blown motor. I had a 1965 VW bug that needed a body restoration and engine rebuild . So I let her borrow my motor for her bus while I did a restoration on the bug. This was the first time she had repaired a car engine.
She bought the ‘Idiots’ book and rebuilt the engine in our living room. We were stationed at FT. Eustis, VA and lived on post. When friends came over and saw the engine by the sofa they thought my wife must be pissed at me. Imagine the look on their faces when I explain that this is my wifes project.
BTW, the engine ran perfectly and I still have it back in the bug.
Is this an elevator building, or a flve-floor walkup?
There was a time when Ford flatheads and speed parts were all over the place like small-block Chevy stuff is now, but I’d suspect those times are past. Huh, brings back memories…the engines and cars were simple enough that it was no big thing to pull one in an hour or so if you had a chainfall. (Actually, a backhoe is better; you can jiggle back and forth, also side to side.)
If you do go ahead and use your apartment as an engine rebuilding facility, pay attention to Bertel’s advice and be very nice to your super.
Buy a crate engine, use your tools to open the crate, admire your work, and you’re done.
Regards,
BD
You’ll never get the motor out of the apartment without taking down a wall.
Build a Harley V-Twin clone from scratch – lots of parts and lots of know-how on the interwebs, and you can put it into one of these when you’re done.
Why not go the gas radio-controlled car route?
It will cost you a little less and you will learn a lot more- example: if you can set up the suspension on a R/C car, you can do the same on a real car. The engines are little jewels and hop-up parts are reasonable. As a plus, SWMBO might get interested and actually encourage you.
+100 to the bike idea. I’d recommend Vintage MX myself.
Barring that, I’ve rebuilt Porsche 912 and 914 motors in my kitchen – while married. I VW bug or bus motor is very similar with more parts available.
Barring that…the Small Block is a good idea but unless you are building a “classic” hotrod, you might consider the 4.3 Chevy V6. There are a lot of uses for that including dune buggies and your boat.
Back in the day we rebuilt VW boxer fours as a sort of indoor sport kind of like jig saw puzzles. Being Air cooled, they were lighter and easier to maneuver than American Engines.
Many years ago, I rebuilt the engine of an Austin Healey “bugeye” Sprite in the second bedroom of a two bedroom apartment. To protect the carpet, I put down a tarp and, over that, a couple of 4×8 sheets of plywood. By the time I finished, that room looked better than the rest of the apartment.
Just the chemicals involved in cleaning, painting and assembling an engine are not apartment-friendly. I waited to do my first engine overhaul til I had a house with a garage. My guess is that you won’t finish this project if you start it.
Personally, if I was building an engine for a hotrod, I’d definitely choose a Ford flathead, an early Hemi or a Buick nailhead over a smallblock Chevy. I’ll walk right past a nice car with a 350 to admire a cobbled-together rat-rod with “Cadillac 502” on the valve covers.
My recommendation for Thaddeus would be to build an R/C model plane. Maybe you’ll have nowhere to fly it in NYC, but when you’re done building your V8 you won’t have a hotrod to put it in either.
Rebuilding an engine isn’t some wrenching project, it requires serious machining tools, or paying someone with serious machining tools.
Plus, as you mention, in the end you will have just an engine.
The motorcycle recommendations are spot on, on old Harley, Honda CB750 or Yamaha RD350 would work well. But since Sajeev Mehta is insisting on four wheels I have the perfect recommendation for you.
Where do you get something that can be assembled in a very small space from? Japan.
Buy and build the Mitsuoka K-4:
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2007/03/japanese_doityourself_car.html
This question does come very close to trolling. If you are actually able to get a hot rod put together don’t ask why your welded differential does not work (one of the funniest strings of comments I’ve ever seen).
VW engine for sure. Plenty of writeups online, light for an engine and easy to work on. Then you can find a bug shell to put it in after you’re done for cheap. And it makes a great nyc car (except for the lack of heat in the winter). And it won’t take up so much space so you probably won’t be getting a divorce after you’re done (unless that’s the point).
>>Rod Panhard has the only semi-practical suggestion. A V8 is going to be too heavy to get it out of the apartment. I’m not sure how much a motorcycle weighs, but definitely less.<<
You can carry a 600cc motorcycle engine pretty easily. (My wife and I regularly lifted them out of the frame to put on the work bench back when I was racing.)
The only thing about a motorcycle engine is that they are small and it is hard to get at some things with your hands as a result. They are also generally pretty advanced (at least in the sport bike world) and have double overhead cams which are a big step up from a flathead in complexity.
Dear Sajeev,
I too would like to increase my knowledge of internal combustion engines by (re)building one. The problem is that I am an astronaut and currently orbiting the earth in the space shuttle. As you’ll understand, it is not easy for an astronaut to carry a flatheard Ford V8 into the spacecraft, nor is there a lot of room for a workshop. Any leaks of antifreeze will become atomized clouds which sort of messes up the ventilation system, let alone our lungs.
The solution, I decided, is to start with an old, simple Cushman Eagle motor. It’s air cooled, so no coolant problem, and the noise and exhaust fumes should be only minimal disturbances for the crew. After all, the co-pilot has taken up dairy farming, and that damn cow poops all the time.
50merc : most importantly, what does your significant other think about all this?
Honestly, it isn’t economical or worthwhile to rebuild a motorcycle engine unless you throw reason and rationality out the window. It costs LESS to buy a complete running bike than it does to completely rebuild a mc engine (or even partially rebuild) with new parts.
But I have done it, on my Suzuki SV650. I got a spare ex-race motor with lots of go-fast work done to the top end (and a shot bottom end) and did a simple switcheroo of parts with my low-mile stock engine. It cost me all of 500$ for the complete race motor, and then it was just my time to swap parts. I did this in my basement and my living room, carrying the motors around myself, including up and down a flight of stairs to the basement. I still have a set of cylinder heads sitting on my bookcase – the bike itself is long gone.
The last time I did engine work on my Ducati I took the heads off and had them on my office desk. It was exam time at school, so between chapters I would sit and lap the valves and do the clearances. Very zen.