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Or, as the Man Of Maximum puts it at Fastlane, “It Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time.” “It” being the idea of rebadging the Pontiac G8 as a Chevy Caprice.
“With my new “marketing” hat on, upon further review and careful study, we simply cannot make a business case for such a program. Not in today’s market, in this economy, and with fuel regulations what they are and will be. I know that we’ll get a lot of complaints from G8 lovers, because I’m one of them. And the product guy in me is complaining as loudly as anyone. But the marketing guy says there’s no case. With budgets being what they are for the time being, the resources must be allocated elsewhere.”
I thought Pontiac was dead along time ago.
The most Pontiacs I ever saw at one time were donated by Oprah Winfrey.
God forbid GM offers a car for sales that people truly want to buy.
Buying a car is turning into the same thing as voting: You don’t get anything you want, you just get whatever is least objectionable to you.
Oy vey. Just curious: How many Clown Victorias did Ford move in the last 36 months?
@ john,fritz…. Sounds like somebody needs to go in for some re-neducation. You will learn to want what they have to sell… it’ll be a bit like 1984 and Miniluv. Then once they’ve broken you… well you know.
In a week they have changed their minds 5 or 6 time…amazing…they really don’t know where the ship is going…sad
Well it sure didn’t take long for Lutz to make another gaffe once he returned to GM, and stir things up with enthusiasts and the media.
For all the people so worked up over this car there sure doesn’t seem to be too many of them actually going out and getting one. There’s still plenty of them out there on Pontiac lots and for sale second-hand at firesale prices.
There’s speculation that once Holden gives the car a mid-cycle refresh that GM will sell it in the US under Chevrolet. Or they won’t, there’s a question of whether selling Holden cars in the US is profitable or not and GM being penniless can’t really afford to offer more profit-free cars, can it?
“How many Clown Victorias did Ford move in the last 36 months?”
Quite a few, I’m sure. But they were mostly to fleet customers (police, taxi, etc.) and were low bid. I doubt those buyers would go for the G8. I might be interested in a 2 – 3 year old one.
Twotone
Whoa, all the automobile marketers that I’ve met believed every car could sell. If the car performed poorly in the marketplace, then it was usually do to factors outside of their control – or they blamed the sales guys.
Then again, if the potential buyers of a car all exist within online message boards and blogs, then that’s usually a good indicator that it won’t sell in real life. So maybe the marketers at the “new GM” on to something.
Yeah, but this time Lutz had the good idea. And his boss pulls the usual GM-think.
I still feel convinced that GM would have a better shot if he was running the show. At least he’d be trying to put out cars that people would want to buy.
What f**king resources?!? The car already exists, as do Caprice grills and badges to apply to it! Make the minor changes on the line and ship it. You freaking morons at GM can’t do anything right!You’d probably sell the hell out of the damn thing if it were a Chevy! It’s the one vehicle you have in the U.S. with no equal, the one unique car you have here and you’re going to kill it. You have my tax money and are doing an extremely poor job managing it, and I’m pissed. Every asshole running this rudderless ship should be thrown overboard, and a new group of leaders that actually gives a shit should take over.
Whoa… give the guy a “marketing hat” and he goes all rational.
The G8 may be a fantastic car. However it still won’t sell big enough as a Chevy to justify its existence… at least not in this climate. And it’s no “halo” car either, so the loss isn’t worth it.
The G8 twilight run might have been a different story if GM hadn’t screwed themselves six ways from Sunday years ago.
I actually have to agree with Maximum Bob on this one. While the car is awesome, it just doesn’t seem correct for the current U.S. market. The truth is that vanilla is what sells the most and good vanilla should be a focus. Aside from that, the new Malibu platform seems good and this might only serve to cannibalize sales.
Good god, I am defending GM…somewhere there is an angry horned man sitting in a vast frozen tundra.
He’s probably right. But then, none of what he stated wasn’t known to everyone with half a brain back in 2004-2006, so why did he bring over the G8 then?
Camry/Accord/Impala are all FWD, soft, cheap, 4-door cars that are the best-sellers. Why did anyone expect the G8 to be hot? Ever?
Just curious: How many Clown Victorias did Ford move in the last 36 months?
Not that many:
2008 – 48,557
2007 – 60,901
2006 – 62,976
2005 – 63,939
The only way to make money on volumes like that is to either charge high prices or else use old technology. You know that it’s not the former.
GM has a considerable problem — short-term profitability is probably not possible. The first priority has to be on brand building, with the goal of creating a basis for higher prices later. But this will lose money in the short run, and they’ll need cash to pay for it.
The debate should be whether a Chevy G8-based car would raise the credibility of Chevrolet as a whole. I personally can only see this happening if this were done in conjunction with killing off the Impala, and given exchange rates, it won’t be profitable unless it is built outside of Australia. Personally, I would kill off the Impala and build this up as a replacement model, but that will require the ability to absorb interim losses that GM might not be able to take.
The G8 will not save GM, It may be the car that some on this website desire. It may be a car that Toyota and Honda don’t have but its not a car that the vast middle of the market desires. It not a volume model. I hope they do make just so that when it goes kerthud-flop people realize that their own personal taste does not mean that the others universally agree with them. The market desires Camrys, Corollas, and large pick up trucks.
Umm…. is that a hood ornament?
Lutz. Wow. It’s like he never left.
Wow…what a week this has been.
So the millions/billions GM spent to make the Zeta one of the premier RWD platforms in existence (going so far as to compare the G8 GXP’s handling to the venerable BMW M5) goes down the drain, leaving the Camaro to soldier on.
That, to me, is more of a waste than using the platform as an Impala-replacement.
Even if the GXP wasn’t used, the standard 6.2 V8 would’ve made a more than credible Taurus/Maxima/Avalon/Azera competitor.
Oh well…say buh-bye to your new cop cars coppers!
I applaud this decision not to push a rebadged Pontiac on us.
Is it me, or does the name “Caprice” conjure up images of government-owned vehicles and elderly drivers? Do they think they can somehow “morph” the success of the Caprice into the former G8?
Can’t they pick a better F&#$ing name?
“The most Pontiacs I ever saw at one time were donated by Oprah Winfrey.”
Clearly, you never go by the rental lot at the airport.
We asked because we care. Or more accurately, we did care. Get a clue, GM.
I am willing to bet that looming CAFE changes impact this decision more than any other factor. Any takers?
Ferkryinoutloud, the car is already designed and in production. Is there any tooling cost yet to amortize? Either New GM bought it through the bankruptcy, or could buy it for pennies on the dollar from DeadGM. So, what kind of volumes do you need to cover its costs?
If we were talking about the Aveo, it is a substandard product that would continue to harm New GM’s reputation for years to come. But this is one of the best cars they have made in 50 years.
CAFE has been ruining the US auto industry for 30 years, and the screws are now being tightened. Just a matter of time.
GM can’t afford to import Australian built cars because the US dollar is too weak, making it unprofitable.
Besides, Hyundai-Kia are set to clean their clock with the introduction of a Genesis based, downsized/down-priced Kia Amanti replacement. It will NOT be called Kia Amanti, but something else.
Fall 2011; it is supposed to run the engines as used in the Genesis coupe, plus a 3.3 litre version of the V6.
3.3/V6 standard.
2.0/turbo 4 with direct injection for the “mpg” version (that won’t be it’s name of course)
3.8/V6 for the upgrade job.
No V8.
The car will be about the size of the BMW 5-series while the Hyundai Genesis sedan is about the size of the BMW 7-series.
Yep, it’ll replace the Amanti in the states; the front wheel drive car directly replacing the Amanti in South Korea won’t be sold here.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/kia-amanti-to-go-rear-wheel-drive.html
Therefore, with a $26,000 high-zoot rear wheel drive car built by a company with a great warrantee and steady sales (and increasing market share), Chrysler may as well save their (our) pennies and not bother with the C200 either…
This one’s already baking, almost done.
And yes, if GM really truly wanted to they could have Caprice’s on the boat and in US dealers by October. The car is actually in production right now, on the same basis of the US spec G8, in Australia – for sale in the middle east.
“…But the marketing guy says there’s no case…”
So this is the “new” GM? Hasn’t that been GM’s excuse for the last 30 or so years?
They need a “business case” to build and import a car that someone might actually buy… That’s just sad. Who’s going design their cars for them once GM sells Opel? The UAW? Whoever they choose, it’ll be entertaining, if painful. Pass the popcorn.
Eh. Fritz is his boss. It’s a very political company. Lutz had to find a way to backpedal without sacrificing his pride, and this is how he chose to do it.
Be angry at Fritz, not Lutz, on this one.
menno, it’s probably worth noting that the Genesis has been an even bigger flop out of the gate than both the GTO and G8 import programs from Australia.
Last month Hyundai moved a piddling 1,800 Genesis cars. And they don’t even break that number down between coupe and sedan. That’s godawful numbers for a car that was hyped to Hell in the media and in commercials. GM is selling more G8s from a dead brand now than Hyundai can move their expensive-for-the-brand media darling.
They collect dust on the lot I drove by every day here in Phoenix and I have yet to see any coupes on the road and maybe a sedan driven by a blue-hair every other month.
Hyundai’s push into RWD is going just as badly as GM’s, but I give them kudos for at least sticking with it (for now). I think giving Kia a floppy RWD car and selling the Equus here are terrible ideas though.
I wonder if Obama & Co. shut Fritz’s door one day when they were walking past, said “No more RWD passenger cars with V8’s, OK guys?”, popped the door back open and continued on their way…
And with that Fiatsler breathes a big sigh of relief then breaks out the Sangiovese …
“So this is the “new” GM? Hasn’t that been GM’s excuse for the last 30 or so years?”
There you go, Lutz. Put that in your Aveo and crush it.
This is exactly why you went bankrupt in the first place: refusing to build anything resembling quality cars for cost-cutting measures. While you do cut costs by say $1,000 a car, you also cut your profits by $4,000 a car. Name your so-called business case for this move!
If you strive to build quality products at any monetary cost, you might go bankrupt. If you strive to keep costs down at any quality cost, you will go bankrupt.
I think the American public has a right to sue General Motors for false advertising. You cannot now advertise this company as New GM…this company is called StillTheSameOldGM. Either change the name or give us our G8.
It took exactly one week for the New GM to became less relevant than the old GM.
Questions
1. Wouldn’t the Chrysler 300 be the more accurate comparison (Rather than the Crown Vic)for the G8?
Seems to me like Chrysler sold a ton of those.
2. Why DIDN’T the G8 sell? To me the G8 seems like exactly what we enthusiasts have been asking GM to give us for years – a car that mirrors but modernizes the glory days of GM. It’s a roomy euro-spec equal 5 passenger sedan with plenty of oomph.
I can say why I personally didn’t buy one but I can’t speak for the market. For me, frankly, it was the fact that the car carries the mark of GM.
I don’t want to take a risk on the quality, particularly with a short warranty, and I don’t want hassles from a dealer. Whether these are legitimate concerns or not they’re what sent me back into the arms of BMW. Qualitywise probably not much better, but the hassle factor if/when I do have a problem is pretty low. Anybody else? Bueller? Anybody?
3. I’ve been watching the Genesis with interest. To be honest, I’ve only recognized ONE on the street since they came out. I thought it was very handsome and expensive looking… but it was wearing dealer plates. I expected to see a lot more of them, but haven’t. I’m in a fairly reasonable part of Dallas, and I usually see a good assortment of middle class level cars. Anybody else? Bueller? Anybody?
gee, Bob, why not loosen up your marketing hat and hire back the douchebag who helped destroy the GTO launch; Bob Kraut. I’m sure he’d be happy to leave Pizza Hut and come back to work for you!
Personally, I would kill off the Impala and build this up as a replacement model, but that will require the ability to absorb interim losses that GM might not be able to take.
I think it might make more sense to kill the Impala, forget about a rear-drive non-premium car, and pour every cent it would have cost into making the Malibu into a head-and-shoulders-above-the-rest car. Considering that the only people buying the Impala do so because a) it’s cheaper, b) it’s made locally or c) it’s cheaper, this wouldn’t be such a bad thing.
Similarly, we could comfortably cut the money being poured into Buick and put it towards the gaping holes in Cadillac’s lineup.
The G8 wasn’t a premium car by any stretch, it was an athletic and nicely appointed four-door muscle car but there’s nothing luxurious about it.
It’s direct competition was the Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300, both of which offered more toys (at a price) and similar performance.
The biggest difference is Chrysler makes money on those cars as they were engineered and are assembled in North America and more immune to drastic currency fluctuation that deep sixes GM’s Holden imports. They also have styling that’s more in tune with American tastes and use heritage names and cues that resonate with the market. G8 is a silly name and didn’t resonate with anything.
GM was working on a new RWD Impala based on the Camaro which itself is based on the Holden Commodore/Pontiac G8 to be assembled in Canada but mothballed it. That was a huge mistake and GM pretty much ensured that Chrysler will remain the big, affordable RWD king for the forseeable future now that Ford is putting the Crown Victoria down.
GM should have sold both the Monaro and Commodore as Chevrolets from the get-go and given them real names. Pontiac was already a dead brand in 2003 and as good as these cars were nobody past a select few wanted to put up their money for a nice Pontiac. Pontiac fans also didn’t like either of these cars, they wanted their Firebird back which would have been the easiest way to inject soul back into the heavily damaged brand.
Selling a big RWD V8 in the US right now is a niche market. The problem with the G8 is not “is it a good car”, but “who are they selling it to?”. The Malibu is the Camry competitor, so where does that leave the G8? They could aim at the Maxima, but they need a big warranty for that.
If it’s supposed to be an M5 competitor, it should be a Cadillac. If it’s going to be the full size car at Chevy to replace the Impala (not a bad idea), then it needs to be made in somewhere where labor costs are better and they need to commit, and they need a fuel efficient engine option. By “fuel efficient” I mean in town as well as on the highway. Numbers in the teens are not as acceptable now as they were 10 years ago, even in a full size car. But it seems the biggest issue is cost, and that kills it.
The G8 is a perfect Lutz car: it’s fast, sporty, it’s got a V8, and as a GM car nobody cares. GM lost the niche this car sold in long ago and so it has nobody to sell to. The people who would buy this as a V6 have Maximas and the people who would buy this as a cheap M5 are buying 3 series BMWs. It’s not a cheap enough pile of metal to foist off on fleets it seems, so it doesn’t even sell there.
Rebadging = bad. G8 = good. But is it really “rebadged” if Pontiac is extinct?
The rebadging is actually Holden –> Pontiac. So if it becomes Chevy, so what?
The truth is that the G8 doesn’t sell well. That’s the problem, but probably a wise choice. All the G8 enthusiasts out there don’t actually buy the car.
Maybe the same marketing fellow MB is talking to should rethink the Volt.
Well said TriShield. I don’t see the Genesis being a financial success over the long haul.
I suspect at the end of the day Hyundai will wish they never futzed with it. Time will tell.
I think the American public has a right to sue General Motors for false advertising. You cannot now advertise this company as New GM…this company is called StillTheSameOldGM. Either change the name or give us our G8.
Your G8 is still sitting on the Pontiac dealer’s lot…collecting dust. Which is probably why Lutz made the smart decision to let this car ride off into the sunset.
But what are we going to get instead of the G8? A car that sells just as poorly but is also not good? This is why you don’t kill good cars for cost-saving measures…it hurts you several times more than it helps you.
Just ask yourself why the Old GM went under. They wanted to save money, and they did anything they could to save money. They became so obsessed with saving money that one day, they woke up and realized they weren’t making any money either.
Let’s try this again: If you lose already made money, you might go under. If you don’t make any money, you will go under. It’s a lesson GM does not seem to have learned even from being there themselves.
jybt— I don’t think the purpose of the Genesis is to be a big profit center. It is to work its way into the public consciousness as a car brand you don’t need to be embarrassed to drive. They are halo cars, except that they are meant to be driven.
Why do the Aussies get to buy cars that are more American than Americans can buy. Do they have anything like CAFE down there?
DaveJay is right. This is Frankenstein Fritz over-ruling Lutz. The pin headed bean counter wins again, and GM loses. Fritz even looks like the boss in Dilbert.
The G8 was never properly marketed in the US. It was lost in the fog. Tuned (modified) for each brand, it could be sold as a Buick Cadillac or Chevy. It is the best car GM has. So what are they going to sell if not the G8 platform? Not very much. Cadillac and Buick, based on current sales, are already dead. V6 and V8 versions of the G8 are tooled and ready to go. What else can they possibly sell? Cobalts, Impalas = roadkill. Malibu = good, but not in peoples minds.
GM is so screwed up now, I won’t even consider a GM car or truck. Ford or Chrysler, but not GM. After GM files again, they probably will keep a monopoly on spare parts to make money, after they are out of the new car business. So you get screwed twice, once when you buy a GM car, and the second time, when you try to buy parts for it.
GM = Studebaker 1964. RIP. Wait, Studebaker actually was a much better oompany. Why insult Studebaker?
Last month Hyundai moved a piddling 1,800 Genesis cars. And they don’t even break that number down between coupe and sedan. That’s godawful numbers for a car that was hyped to Hell in the media and in commercials. GM is selling more G8s from a dead brand now than Hyundai can move their expensive-for-the-brand media darling.
This was entirely predictable. The kind of people who buy Lexus/Acura/Audi wouldn’t be caught dead in a Hyundai Dealership with their current customers.
The car would have been a sales flop just like the G8 was. Zeta has no future in North America. The Camaro is already falling apart.
@npbheights:
Why do the Aussies get to buy cars that are more American than Americans can buy. Do they have anything like CAFE down there?
No, they have nothing like CAFE down there. Instead, like every first-world nation outside North America, they tax motor fuel at a rate greater than we do, and then leave it to buyers to decide how much tax (fuel) they want to pay (buy).
A few things I take away from the G8/Caprice episode:
1. GM can’t manage to market and sell a critically lauded car.
2. Lutz is an incredible jackass.
3. GM’s top executives have no clue what’s going on in their own company.
4.I just know that in a couple months at the NAIAS GM is going to be trotting out some mega-niche SSR/Solstice type car due to be released for late 2011. This car will sell worse than a Chevy Zeta sedan would have.
There’s a more obvious question for me; why the HELL are there TWO capable RWD platforms? Zeta (G8) and Sigma II (CTS). WTF is that all about?????
# Lokkii :
July 17th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
…I’ve been watching the Genesis with interest. To be honest, I’ve only recognized ONE on the street since they came out. I thought it was very handsome and expensive looking… but it was wearing dealer plates. I expected to see a lot more of them, but haven’t. I’m in a fairly reasonable part of Dallas, and I usually see a good assortment of middle class level cars. Anybody else? Bueller? Anybody?
# toxicroach :
July 17th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
jybt— I don’t think the purpose of the Genesis is to be a big profit center. It is to work its way into the public consciousness as a car brand you don’t need to be embarrassed to drive. They are halo cars, except that they are meant to be driven.
Lokkii, I’ve seen a Genesis coupe and a sedan in the Telecom Corridor area of Richardson, TX. However, Hyundai seems to be selling a good number of Sonatas so the halo car theory may have merit. Could simply be a horrible time to attempt to introduce a car with a relatively high price for the brand given the good deals on used luxury cars.
I saw a G8 at Walmart and a few on the streets. Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger have done much better on sales volume. Maybe most drivers who wanted a large RWD sedan with a V8 and torsional rigidity already bought a 300C or a Charger R/T and don’t have a reason to spend money on a G8.
Sell the G8 as the Impala. They haven’t updated that thing since 1999, except for the “Blob” restyle they gave it a few years ago. The mechanicals are still old and crappy.
And never trust the marketing guys. When you hear “things are going great” and then people leave for other companies, the sh*t is going to hit the fan.
They are like HR people- they stay one step ahead of their screw-ups.
And I’ll bet they clamored for the G-3…
There are many variants of the Commodore here:
* Omega – slapper model for fleets and rental markets.
* Berlina – the model most sold to retail / families, etc. This spec level would make a good Impala replacement.
* Calais – “Luxury” interior. This is the 3/5 series killer if GM decided not to bring in the lower spec models. Otherwise, you can blow away any comparisons to the Beemers as quality is really not that high.
* SV6 / SS – The G8. These are basically what you’re getting as the G8.
* Caprice / Statesman – LWB with sports or comfort suspension tunes, different interior packages. Make a good town car replacement.
* HSV cooking models – usually with > 300 kW (400 bhp) V8 engines. Overpriced and look crap.
There’s also the Sportswagon model, which looks much like the Dodge Magnum. Not good for families – the rear window opening would create a great deal of vomit and claustrophobia in smaller children. I bet the designers never considered the idea of smaller folks being in the back seats. Looks good though if you’re a gay couple or a dinkie.
GM will never bring any of these models to the USA unless they can get the dies and make them in the USA. That is simply uneconomical – even more uneconomical than bringing them in to the USA from Australia. UAW will not allow imports, and now they have board seats, they’ll nix any such idea. That’s why the G8 is dead – not because of Fritz (although he has zero spine), not because of Lutz (who had a lot to do with bringing this generation of Commodore to fruition).