Businessweek reports that GM’s Korean Daewoo Automotive Technology (GM-DAT) partner is in as much trouble as the Detroit-based mothership. GM-DAT, which develops much of GM’s small-car capability, has seen its sales fall nearly in half in June (particularly in Russia and Korea), prompting some to question whether the firm will emerge from a mounting liquidity crunch. Last year GM-DAT exported 900,000 vehicles and one million knock-down kits last year, accounting for a quarter of GM’s global sales. But as the firm’s Chevy and Buick brands have sagged, so to has GM-DAT’s income. The Korean unit is seeking loans from the Korean Development Bank, which owns 28 percent of the firm. KDB reportedly will only back GM-DAT if it becomes a full-line vehicle developer, rather than a small-car specialist. This would threaten GM’s Holden subsidiary in Australia, which has put the kibosh on such talks. Meanwhile, we’re hearing rumblings that the GM-DAT liquidity crisis is being caused by GM underpaying for its imports.
“GM underpaying for its imports”
You mean it doesn’t actually cost $16k to build an Aveo?
Gee, who’d have ever thought that GM would screw over yet another “partner”?
Let’s see….
Toyota (NUMMI) – screwed glued and tattooed.
Isuzu – the yellow tape is still on the ground.
Suzuki – escaped with it’s life – barely.
Subaru – escaped to go in with Toyota. Smart move.
Daewoo – you’d have been better off in the arms of Volkswagen or Ford, or Honda, which used to be a partner after GM and you parted the first time.
Damn; GM is almost as bad as Chrysler!
Simca. At least your castoff offspring survived as Peugeots.
Hillman/Rootes Group. At least your castoff offspring survived as Peugeots for awhile.
AMC and the Kenosha workforce – gone but not forgotten. See? You should have stayed with your French mistress…. at least she didn’t always lie to you, right to your face. Besides, AMC? After being so abused by your new spouse, you ended up saving his bacon… some thanks you got.
Mitsubishi – screwed, glued and tattooed. Twice. When you were in need, Chrysler and Herr Daimler dropped you so fast…. hmmm, isn’t that what partners are for? No?!
Hyundai – the South Koreans got so sick of you and Herr Daimler that they paid for their 10% back with pleasure, to avoid having anything to do with either of you.
Chery – see? You should have stayed faithful to Visionary Vehicles…. you could have asked Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Peugeot or AMC.
Interesting, isn’t it, that marriages fall apart for cruelty, desertion, mental abuse, selfishness…. how much are corporations like humans?
All too much, by all appearances.
I’ll stick with stable car manufacturers, thanks.
I’ll stick with stable car manufacturers, thanks.
Whatnow? These exist?
Dawoo has been a punchline in europe for ages, then they badged them as Chevy’s, still a punchline!
At this point, it’s time to sit back, pop open a beer, a watch the mushroom clouds.
Local GM branch hasn’t paid to “asian suppliers” for almost a year. About 1 Billion $.
And in this site was posted some time ago that Saab wasn’t being paid for the cars sold in the US, or something similar to that.
So the sentence “GM underpaying for its imports”, seen as the owe money for cars they sold, makes sense to me.
@menno: Hillman Hunter survived quite a lot, up to 2002 as the Iran Khodro Paykan. And somehow to this day as Peugeot ROA and IKCO Bardo Pickup. The line was sold to some african country I can’t remember right now.
When Daewoo was on the brink of bankruptcy back in 2002, Fiat was one of the manufacturers in line to purchase them, among others. I guess GM bought them since Daewoos were made mostly with GM technology: engines, gearboxes, even the electronics were similar. So such a move made sense (it still does).
About Isuzu… damn, don’t let even get started on that.
GM’s Daewoes
You’ve had that headline drafted for years and have just been looking for the opportunity to use, haven’t you?
Wow, Stingray; a billion dollars is pretty big no matter who’s doing the counting.
Yeah, I know about the Pakyan (Paykan?). Quite a few cars see 2nd lives elsewhere in the world.
Dateline 1976; RAF Woodbridge. I was a 1-striper Airman new to adult life, the US Air Force and England. But still a car guy and an AMC fan.
I looked & saw the Volkswagen K70’s which resembled the Volvo 144’s quite a big – but which were so technically advanced (even though engineered 9 years prior, introduced 6 years prior) that they made all other VW’s look like the anachranisms that they were…
So I wrote to American Motors and advised them that Volkswagen had just quit building the (NSU developed) K70 sedans and opined that if they brought suitcases of money, VW might sell them the rights, dies, tools, production machinery…
I often wondered if they actually took me seriously and that’s how AMC ended up buying (with rights to produce) the (unrelated) Audi 2.0 litre OHC engine (which was also used in the Porsche 924).
I’ve also often wondered how AMC could have actually leapfrogged the entire Detroit 3 and put that puppy into production in Kenosha (NSU had even developed a station wagon/variant). It would not have taken long since it was already out of production in Germany by the end of 1975.
Saab type rubber bumpers, some emission equipment (like a catalyst and air pump), a US built Holley-Weber 2 barrel carburetor…. the biggest engineering job would have been to figure out how to rig up an automatic transmission. Borg-Warner or ZF would have been happy to assist for a small nominal fee…. and production contract. AMC already was buying GM rack & pinion power steering from GM-Saginaw for the Pacer; it could have been adapted for use as an option.
An AMC “K70” would introduced in the autumn of 1977 would have been a fantastic car for AMC.
http://web.telia.com/~u31614134/eK70.html
If only they could have convinced the drug addled UAW workforce to do a better job, that is…
See how advanced the car was (especially considering it was engineered between 1967 and 1969).
http://web.telia.com/~u31614134/K70/eVWK70trough.html
Crush zones. Longetudial engine with transaxle behind (for ease of maintenance vs. transverse engine & better shift feel). Inboard front disc brakes with 2 brake circuits plus emergency brakes, separate brake circuits for rear drum brakes. All-independent suspension. Front wheel drive. Huge interior with room for 5 adults. 25 cubic feet of trunk space (yeah; twice the room of the current “mid-sized” front wheel drive cars which are considerably larger). Long (for the time) 106″ wheelbase. VW even put an early version of a diagnostic system onboard the cars. The engine was an NSU designed alloy head hemispherical combustion chamber overhead camshaft 1.8 litre four cylinder.
I’ve often wondered if AMC would have ended up buying CHRYSLER had it had this car’s bones to work with from late 1977….
A stylish coupe version… a station wagon version… a shorter wheelbase 2 and 4 door hatchback version…. a stroked 2 litre version with fuel injection…. and AMC’s planned “minivan” some 5 years ahead of Chrysler’s….
Look at the trunk space on this puppy!
http://web.telia.com/~u31614134/K70/eVWK70e.html
History could have been very different.
menno… actually the local GM branch stopped because of that.
Not because they’re broke or don’t want to pay, but because the government hasn’t given them the currency ($$$$$). In Venezuela we have currency control and due to lower oil prices, shortage too.
I’ve read about that NSU, and yes it was pretty advanced, as many of the designs VW inherited from NSU. In fact, I don’t think the longitudinal FWD array of Audis is coincidence.
Before long, Stingray, the rest of the world will be in the same position that Venezuela is now, I suspect.
We have a rather rude but very graphic description of the situation, here in Michigan; “up shit creek without a paddle”
At least Flint Michigan doesn’t have 50% unemployment as it did in 1983.
Of course, Flint Michigan is pretty much a ghost-town, so it’d be hard to have 50% unemployment, now.
The powers-that-be are talking about bulldozing entire empty neighborhoods in US cities, not just in Michigan. Turn them into green areas again. Many of the homes can be bought for the price of a 15 year old clunker; less than $2000. If you are insane enough to decide you want to “live” there (and risk getting shot randomly).
@MENNO I havn’t been in area for quite some time.
Has it gone that far down hill? What a shame I’ve met some nice people that call that area home.
No houses in Flint for silly money right now, but a couple in Detroit or Saginaw.
http://www.realestate-mls.com/search.cgi/-1::Any:0:5000:0:999999999:0:999999999:0:99:0:99:0:0:0:
Hmm the link may not work.
$4,000; 2 bedrooms; 1 bath; mobile home; 720 sq ft;
Caro (within city limits); Michigan.
View with other listings
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$1,900; 2 bedrooms; 1 1/2 baths; 1 1/2 story; 980 sq ft; 0.11 acres +/-;
Detroit (within city limits); Michigan.
View with other listings
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$3,800; 3 bedrooms; 1 bath; 2 story; 1200 sq ft; 1 1/2 car garage;
Detroit (within city limits); Michigan.
View with other listings
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$5,000; 4 bedrooms; 2 baths; bungalow; 1404 sq ft; 2 car garage;
Detroit (within city limits); Michigan.
View with other listings
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$5,000; 6 bedrooms; 2 baths; duplex; 1705 sq ft; 2 car garage;
Detroit (within city limits); Michigan.
View with other listings
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$4,900; 4 bedrooms; 1 1/2 baths; 2 story; 1122 sq ft; 1 1/2 car garage;
Saginaw (within city limits); Michigan.
@menno….The link worked. I don’t know what to say,I thought I was past the point where anything shocked me anymore.
I’d found a rather crummym run down house up in Cheboygan at the straits between the two peninsulas, about 20 miles from The Bridge (Mackinaw) for $4000 and was sorely tempted as a ‘cottage’. I quite liked the old town neighborhood, too. It was close to the water, for the Newfoundland dogs, as well. Plus it had a 4 car garage. In the end, we decided that it’d take about $20,000 to get it back to “right” plus about several thousand hours of work on our part.
We decided to stick with our pop-up camper bought new in 2007 and have managed to actually camp in it a few times this year, unlike 2008 when we didn’t manage one single camp.
Which also led to our saying “nix” the idea of snagging a 2nd place as a cottage. We can hardly get away to camp now, nevermind spend every flaming weekend driving 2 1/2 hours to a ‘cottage’ and working like dervishes to rebuild it all weekend, when we both work full time.
Yes, the state of Michigan is quite shocking, isn’t it? Not forgetting that we’ve been in a recession for oh, about 10 years now. For us, it’s become the Greater Depression – but I hate to tell you this, but we’re only a few months ahead of the rest of you now.
Listen to Gerald (video to the right after opening the link) – take some prozac first…
http://www.trendsresearch.com/
Because I know you’re in Canada, and even Canada won’t escape the coming real world problems. You’ll be better off than us – but that’s like saying you’re sick with syphilis instead of clap.
http://www.trendsresearch.com/forecast.html
GM seems to have a kind of “reverse King Midas gift”. Everything they touch turns to shit, not to gold.
I’m full in line with Michael Moore, who suggested once that in order to solve the drug problems in the US, the best solution would be to make GM the sole distributor for drugs. They would even manage to completely mess up this business.
Interesting to see what Holden will do as it sells a bunch of Daewoo’s rebadged as Holdens.
@menno..Thanks for all the links…scary stuff indeed.
menno, you are a veritable font of interesting info. I wonder if some K70 genes wound up in the Audi Fox, which was a very impressive car if you disregard repair costs.
Folks, check out the 3BR house listed for $3,800. You can buy a home for hardly more than twice the yearly taxes ($1,591* if it’s your home; more if you rent it out)! But in case you need some translation from “realtor speak,” here are some tips:
— “near expressway”: Great if you’re deaf.
— “as is”: Don’t expect us to drain the basement.
— “possession immediate”: It’s been empty since ’67.
— “security door”: Still needs bars added to first and second story windows.
Also, the picture shows the house after a heavy snowfall. Yeah, that’ll lure people back from the Sunbelt.
Man, I don’t know how a state that was so rich and talented got into such shape.
*That’s the amount you could pay on a $200,000 home in Oklahoma. Okies hate property taxes.
Those houses are dirt cheap
Suzuki – escaped with it’s life – barely.
Last I heard, Suzuki owns about 11% of GM DAT*, which leads to two questions:
1. Does Suzuki still have a stake in GM DAT?
2. If so, how will GM DAT’s problems affect Suzuki?
*Fortunately, by no longer selling rebadged Daewoos, Suzuki is beginning to address the quality gap to which the Daewoos contributed.
Stingray: I’ve read about that NSU, and yes it was pretty advanced, as many of the designs VW inherited from NSU. In fact, I don’t think the longitudinal FWD array of Audis is coincidence.
While there were surely bits of the K70 that did make their way to the 1970s Audis, it’s not really part of the Audi lineage. Instead, you need to look back to the early 1960s DKW F102, which was FWD and used a longitudinal two-stroke (!) engine. That was succeeded in 1965 by Audi’s F103 series cars (the resurrected Audi brand replacing DKW branding), first Audi 72, then later Audi 80, Audi 60, Audi 75 and Audi Super 90 (all named after the DIN horsepower ratings). In 1972 that evolved into the Audi 80 (aka Fox), and the rest is history.
Oh yes, I should mention that our family owned a K70 back in 1970-71 …
The problem is that in almost every segment the Daewoo vehicles are laggards, not class leaders.
Why anyone would buy a Daewoo over the competing Toyota, Honda or Hyundai is a mystery. It seems like lots of people have figured this out.
I thought GM didn’t make good small cars ??
http://www.car4you.ch/sea_det.cfm?vehicleid=3995147&searchmakedesc=OPEL&searchmodeldesc=CORSA&status=0,1,2&market=1,2&stylecode=10&check_sunroof=1&step=30&psmin=160&language=de&vehiclescount=6&pagingpos=0&firstsort=1&defaultlist=4151428,3995147,4023518,102613304,102570421,102557578
hope that link comes out. It is an awesome car. And that is 30mpg !
I hear a lot of crap spread about Daewoo by people who have never even looked at the product. I just bought (at very reduced price) a new 2008 Suzuki Forenza. Excellent interior room, excellent interior, good shifting transmission and clutch. Yes it does have an Australian engine, but it is good too. Overall a much more fun car to drive than a Pontiac G6 I just test drove. I own a Mustang. I own a Town Car. I have owned many different cars, including a Japanese Suzuki Aerio. There is nothing wrong with Daewoo except they are connected to GM. If Daewoo were sold to another company, they would do just fine. Based on ride, handling, paint, I would take the Daewoo over the over-rated and over-priced Corolla.
Matt, the 1.6 litre engines (Daewoo built) are total junk. These are the ones that 95% of the population in North America are likely to come across, since they are sold in Chevrolet Aveos. We have similar tastes, by the sound of it; I was EXTREMELY impressed with the Suzuki Aerio (but never managed to buy one as the dealer folded up one weekend, and blew away after being bought up by the local Chevrolet – Kia – Honda dealer). As you probably know, the Aerio was Suzuki’s own work, not a Daewoo product. The sedan had a HUGE trunk. The car had much more going for it than the “typical” Civic, Corolla or Focus. Alas, like much of Suzuki’s line-up, it’s virtually ignored in the USA.
In fact, GM truly bought a diamond in the rough when they essentially stole Daewoo for pennies on the Won, so to speak. I’ve read some British magazines which indicated that when GM (which invested in GM-Daewoo via Holden) sent the ex-leader of Vauxhall to South Korea, he was quite impressed with the metal work (bodies) that they were turning out. It’s true; I bought a “used” (with 25 miles from new) 2002 Daewoo Nubira (predecessor to your 2008 Suzuki badged car) with the Holden 2 litre 4 cylinder engine for 1/2 price and it has been one of the 4 or 5 best cars out of about 35 cars owned. I simply look at it for what it was intended as; a modern-day Model A. In fact, apparently in the Korean language “Nubira” translates to something very modest; “It’ll get you there”.
While the engine is not particularly economical (our 2002 Hyundai Sonata with 2.7 V6, one full size larger that the Daewoo, used about the same fuel under similar conditions), the car is not all bad and in fact it is still running like a champ for our youngest son.
However, GM is doing it’s usual job with GMDaewoo in that they are now apparently abusive parents, by essentially stealing out of the kid’s sock drawer… OK they owe GMDaewoo a BILLION DOLLARS for cars bought and not paid for…. It would serve GM right if the South Korean banks demanded foreclosure on the GM portion of the company and made it independent as it was from 1967-1972 and from 1992 through 2002. What will GM do then, since they’re forced into selling Opel? Who’ll engineer cars (in lieu of trucks) for them, then? Holden? Holden only works on larger rear wheel drive cars.
A whole ship-load of not good. And typically GM. I’ll admit it. I loathe GM.
Lee, Holden DOES sell rebadged GMDaewoo products in Australasia, alongside their own rear wheel drive jobs. They built 1.8, 2.0 and used to build 2.2 litre DOHC four cylinder engines (not really related to the rest of the world’s GM four cylinder engines) for GMDaewoo. The 2.5 litre inline six (which was used by Suzuki in their Verona last sold here in 2003 or so) was actually designed by PORSCHE for Daewoo just before GM snagged the company which went bust after the asian financial crisis of 1999-2001.
menno: NSU K70’s design lived until last year as the VW Gol/Amazon/Fox built in brazil.
Look at the car’s diagram: http://www.lunaticfringe.org/vwfox/pictures/voyage/VW-Voyage82-06.jpg
You can read more here: http://www.lunaticfringe.org/vwfox/specs/Fox-origins.html
ekaftan: NSU K70’s design lived until last year as the VW Gol/Amazon/Fox built in brazil.
The BX platform for the Gol (and associated models) was derived from the VW B1 platform (original Audi 80 and VW Passat, circa 1972-1973), with an adaptation for water-cooled flat-four engines still popular in Brazil in the late 1970s. The original flat-four engine dictated the use of a longitudinal engine layout and the derivation from the much bigger Passat’s B1 platform, rather than the smaller A1 (Golf) or A01 (Polo) platforms.
So while the K70 brought in fresh ideas and fresh thinking to VW, it was the in-house Audi F103 platform that’s the ancestor of the Gol as well.
Yes, to my knowledge, the K70 was a technological dead-end at VW. I’m pretty sure it had to do with politics, not engineering; why Audi engineering was boosted instead of NSU or Porsche, I have no idea (I’m referring to the proposed mid-engine Beetle replacement which died).
Bertel probably knows all about it and hopefully could add it to his book. Which I’d buy.
The only component re-cycled from the K70 to my knowledge, were the rear drum brakes which ended up on the Porsche 924.
The Audi front wheel drive transaxle was much like the VW Beetle’s only turned 180 degrees. The VW (NSU) K70 transaxle was more akin to the Oldsmobile Toronado design; the differential was in the oil pan (actually under the engine), while the transmission was behind the engine with a shaft forward to the final drive (differential). The first generation front wheel drive Toyota Tercel also used a very K70 like drivetrain design, then switched to a much more typical transverse (crossways) engine design for the next generation Tercel.
The reviews for the Cruze in Europe are in and it is not good news for GM. Car magazine basically stated the Cruze was another mediocrity from Daewoo. I was surprised they gave it two out of five stars though. It is then probably better than the execrable Aveo.
The Cruze will join the Cobalt, ION, and G6 as another over-hyped GM car that fails to compete with the best imports.