TTAC commentator psarhjinian writes:
Thanks to the terrible economy, I’ve recently been given the opportunity to pick up a project car on the (very) cheap. The catch: the project car is a Caterham SV, sans powertrain. Googling around has given me all sorts of options, from four-cylinder Zetecs to small-block Chevvies to Hayabusa powerplants. I’m sure some madman has shoehorned a Prius’ drivetrain in there, but thus far I haven’t turned up the requisite Youtube video of it.
To say “I don’t know where to start” would be an understatement. What I’m trying to figure out is what kind of powertrain would be good, given a perfect storm of cheap, quick and easy for someone with not a lot of tools, experience and time to work on.
Oh, and I do have young children. So as not to invoke my life insurance policy, I think we can skip anything that’s too far into “Death Car” land.
Sajeev writes:
Fascinating project! Fear not the Grim Reaper because an LS-X swap is your only choice. Okay, I might be kidding, except when I am not. I mean, seriously dude. LS-X FTW.
Not convinced? I’m cool with that. Go with a Duratec four-banger for several reasons: common usage on this platform makes for easy answers to installation questions, replacement parts are plentiful at local junkyards, surprising refinement for the price and, most importantly, easy and affordable EFI tuning to get it running perfectly.
So get the goods from www.car-part.com, a local LKQ car recycler, or rent a Focus with full coverage so you can strip that shitbox clean! Just kidding! I’d get an early Focus ZX3 from Craigslist, pull the powertrain plus the wiring/sensors/computer and try to save some of the emissions parts to remain legal, if necessary. Whatever emissions parts (EGR, all four O2 sensors, fuel vapor recovery, etc.) you don’t use might upset the engine computer, but that’s where the tune with a dyno-hacker comes into play.
Once the Caterham runs and you’re certain the donor Focus is pointless, sell the body for scrap. Done.
I’m sure some madman has shoehorned a Prius’ drivetrain in there
I had a ride in one powered by a Siemens EV drivetrain… that wasn’t bad.
You can pick up Nissan sr20 de 2.0 4 cyl engines all day long for a few hundred bucks. It would be a much better option than the focus engine.
Stock 140 hp and 7500 redline. With basic bolt-ons 180 hp is possible. Plus, plus you can go turbo on the cheap if you really want some big power.
The Duratec is probably the best Choice, although I have seen two of these vehicles with Toyota’s 4-AG unit(The 1.6L 16-Valve L4 Found in AE86 RWD Corolla’s, AW11 Mr2’s etc.) which I think would be sufficent as well. Plus, They have less of the electronic controls and the like, and probably would be simpler to install. Converely,as CC rider said above, you could just pull a SR20 out of an old G20 or something.
Just putting it out there.
I’d go Japanese (Civic Si or Integra Type R) motor but that’s just me.
And I agree with Sajeev….LS-X FTW!
The powertrain can be a little pricey to buy, but how about doing an S2000 swap. 2.0L, 240 horse. 9000rpm redline.
If the Duratec 2.0 fits, then it shouldn’t be too much harder to get one of the Mazda DISI 2.3s from the Mazdaspeed3 into the bay. Light, torquey, (possibly pricey) but would be a lot of fun.
What series? Is the picture the car in question? Looks like a 5/6.
If you intend to get the best return for it (should you ever choose to sell it) then it’s best to use the intended 2L Duratech engine, but the 2.3L Cosworth version fits! Whoa baby.
Once you get ‘er running, Welcome To The Club! You haven’t lived if you haven’t had a play in one.
(It’s my opinion).
I’d go Japanese (Civic Si or Integra Type R) motor but that’s just me.
The modern Duratec is a Japanese motor, it’s Mazda’s MZR design.
Why not use the modern Duratec vs the older Zetec design?
Any nice 4-banger in the 1.6 – 2.2 liter size range should work. Stay away from big (heavy) engines because they will destroy the balance of the car.
How about the Mazda rotary? Light, decent horsepower, loves to spin……….lower torque however……
Well, I am going to try and be a voice of reason (if such a thing exists when discussing caterhams) and suggest two good choices:
1. 1.8 4cyl miata drivetrain: Damaged miatas can be had cheap, the drivetrains are fairly bulletproof, plenty of upgrade potential later on if more power is desired.
2. GM 3800 v6: same as above, but slightly less so.
Either engine will keep costs down, but the best reason to choose one of these two is that they are among the most common swaps into these cars and kits are available for both. THus all those little things that drive you crazy have been well sorted already.
P.S. – The devil on my right shoulder keeps saying hayabusa engine!!!
At the risk of being yelled at for plugging another website, I would check out grassroots motorsports forums for help with build questions as those guys have some insane knowledge and make me feel very inadequate about my own mechanical abilities.
psarhjinian,
From as soon-to-be dad, my advice is to sell your children and buy the Caterham. Long term, it will cost you less money.
In all seriousness, I have the plans for one of those “Lo-cost” Caterham knock-offs and if I didn’t have a ’68 VW Fastback in my garage that I haven’t had time to work on I would have a half finished fake Caterham project I don’t have time for.
I am a BIG appreciator of a good user support group. Therefore I’d recco the Zetec. I don’t own a Caterham, but that seems to be the default engine. From previous experience, a good user forum will keep you on the road. It’s not fun being among the pioneers when figuring out how to make 2 bolt holes line up that are 1/2″ off.
Check out this page
http://www.miata.net/keith/
As a Virgo – I caution you not to overthink this.
Buy the damn car !right now! and THEN start worrying about what engine to put in it.
Once she’s in the garage, then start musing about what you like to do with cars when you play.
Will you autocross?
Will you boulvard cruise her on Saturday nights?
Will you go up into the mountains on Sunday mornings?
Will you mainly be giving the kids rides in ‘ a convertible’?
Do you like to spend your Saturday mornings with the hood up and a wrench in your hand?
If you like to tinker and wrench, then it’s an older engine with carbs where you can extract an extra ft-lb of torque all by yourself.
If you like to “smoke your michelins if you got em” then it’s all about V-8 torque.
Autocrossing is a light engine with quick response
Cruising on Saturday night is a different engine than cruising on Sunday morning.
For me, I think that I’d find a wrecked Miata and grab the engine and transmission. But that’s just me. Won’t smoke the tires nearly well enough for Sajeev /
Here’s an interesting book that gave me the Miata idea.
How To Build A Cheap Sports Car
Take a look at the preview pages – page 13 is where I got the Miata idea, but he has other suggestions too.
I suggest connect this guy with whatever best Caterham forum is out there. And copy me on the link.
Miata makes sense to me, the point is light and low power, right? Isn’t that car an aftermarket lotus 7? Just don’t expect much power later on with miata mods. Want huge power, start with huge power.
SR20VET would in my opinion outclass the caterham, I would be looking for vintage Nissan body to go with it if I had one. A high point of Japanese auto history, that motor.
Plan B: Take a deep breath and step back. Are you really The Man for this project? I’m seeing a red-flag NO to that. Think what is on the road ahead if this project car is ever completed. Take a pass.
Buy it, clean it up, and re-sell it to a party better positioned to turn it into a real car.
Be happy with the experience and the new cash lining your pocket.
The I-4 out of a Ranger would be a good substitute for a Zetec. The 2.3l (newer) is the same as in the Mazda3, Fusion twins, Escape triplets but it’s already been turned around the way you need it and if you found a manual version, the transmission might slip in there too. With the abundance of Ranger fleet trucks, it might be a very cheap option. The engines are rather stout and there are turbo kits or even some goodies from Cosworth available.
Go Japanese! 3S-GTE is a good one used here in the similar Fraser. Or else you could go with a JDM SR20DE, especially an Autech S15 one. Or an S15 SR20DET. Meanwhile people here in NZ have done SR20VE heads onto SR20DE RWD blocks. Personally I don’t see the point when you could just work an SR20DE and get the same top end it’s not like low end is a big deal in a Caterham weighing 3/5th’s of FA……
For simple power, nothing really beats the Duratec. It’s an alloy block compared to the iron Zetec. It’s also a 2.3 compared to the 2.0 in the Miata. One from a Ranger has a stronger crank than the Mazda unit and all of the hop-ups and DISI parts swap right on. It’s a very good starting point with loads of aftermarket support. (edit: Just saw TEXN3 nailed this)
The best engine though, hands down, is the Rotary. There is nothing else better for packaging and power. It’s light and revvy like a bike motor without the complicated installation issues. Naturally aspirated rotaries last forever. If you can cool it properly, you could even put the turbo version in the bay and make LS power without the heads sticking out the side of the engine cover like an old Piper Cub.
My dream 7 replica (what gearhead doesn’t have one?) is a turbo rotary hooked up to a BMW AWD system.
I wonder if you could shoehorn a Suzuki SX4’s i-AWD system in there…?
johnny ro, the SR20VET is quite an engine, but it isn’t really a high point, only for the reason that it was only released in 1 car, and that was the T30 X-Trail GT… so much potential, so under-utilised! Now if you relly want to see a high point of Nissan Engines, do some research on the N1 SR16VE!
@AuricTech :
I wonder if you could shoehorn a Suzuki SX4’s i-AWD system in there…?
That’s a FWD-based Haldex or very similar system. I highly doubt it would make sense in that application.
I’m with USAFMech and others. The Mazda 13B rotary should be an easy fit and will, in stock form, make this Caterham a superbly balanced sports car as God and Colin Chapman (perhaps I repeat myself) intended…
Thank you all for the comments.
As a Virgo – I caution you not to overthink this.
As a fellow Virgo, I can assure you I’m not. Since I wrote this question the window on my picking this up has closed substantially.
@Sajeev: Fascinating project! Fear not the Grim Reaper, because an LS-X swap is your only choice. Okay, I might be kidding, except when I am not. I mean, seriously dude. LS-X FTW.
You are out to kill me, aren’t you? It’s because I keep saying bad things about the Crown Vic, isn’t it?
@cc-rider: You can pick up Nissan sr20 de 2.0 4 cyl engines all day long for a few hundred bucks. It would be a much better option than the focus engine.
I hadn’t thought about that. I was looking, mostly, at Toyota 1ZZ-FEs (yes, the 130hp Corolla Wonder-Engine) because they’re cheap, reliable, ubiquitous and I already have some experience on them. My problem is that it has not a lot of performance aftermarket support.
@Mirko Reinhardt: I had a ride in one powered by a Siemens EV drivetrain… that wasn’t bad.
That would be too cool for words.
I’ve wondered about gutting an one of our electric forklifts or suchlike, but I would be limiting myself to some pretty short drives around the block. It appeals to my green side, though.
@Sanman111:GM 3800 v6: same as above, but slightly less so.
That’s an interesting choice, and again not one I’d thought of. Those engines are everywhere around here (I live not too far from Oshawa, and damn near everybody drives a GM W-Body as a result) and the expertise in them is neck-deep.
@PeteMoran: What series? Is the picture the car in question? Looks like a 5/6.
The car I’m looking at is a Series 5. I can’t fit in the basic car.
@PeteMoran:If you intend to get the best return for it (should you ever choose to sell it) then it’s best to use the intended 2L Duratech engine, but the 2.3L Cosworth version fits! Whoa baby.
That seems to be what I get back from most people who own the car. The older Zetec seems a simpler engine, and again, I’m not looking to shred tires with this thing.
@CarPerson: Plan B: Take a deep breath and step back. Are you really The Man for this project? I’m seeing a red-flag NO to that. Think what is on the road ahead if this project car is ever completed. Take a pass.
You know, I’ve thought quite seriously about that. I could, at minimum, pick up the chassis and sit on it until the economy recovers and I find a buyer. And if I don’t find a buyer, well, I have a Caterham.
I’d go with a 20v 4age. You can get a low-mile silvertop from Japan for under $1000, add an AE86 RWD transmission to it, and have yourself a nice, fast, balanced roadster that gets 30+mpg and requires little maintenance and repairs. Or even start out with a complete AE86 drivetrain – it’s a bit slower, but it’s much easier than most other options.
The main advantages are that the basic configuration is well-researched and well-documented, and there are lots of aftermarket parts for fitting 4age’s into 7’s – so if at any point you get stuck, you can get away with throwing money at the problem without drawing too much from your kids’ college fund :)
The best part: once that thing is in, sky’s the limit. There are blacktop motors that provide the ultimate 1.6 N/A power and a beautiful intake sound. There are 4AGZE’s that will give you the asphalt-tearing torque. And if you want to go completely nuts, you can redo the silvertop 20v with low-compression pistons, bolt on a turbo, and… But then you said, no Death Car :)
I ran into a guy at a gas station last week who was driving Lotus 7 replica that he had built by hand (not a Caterham or kit car, but completely hand-built). He said he was using a Corolla engine, for precisely the reasons you were considering it.
He had no trouble going fast, lack of performance aftermarket support or not.
Build it out as an R500.
Twotone
+1 on the Miata if you can get a decently priced powertrain. It’s an affordable RWD design with plenty of aftermarket parts.
psarhjinian,
If you decide to go with the 3800 v6, look up the brunton super stalker. It is a lotus 7 knock off designed for that engine and may lead to some useful information.
psarhjinian : You are out to kill me, aren’t you? It’s because I keep saying bad things about the Crown Vic, isn’t it?
If you’re gonna go, might as well go out with a 5.7L bang.
Speaking of, you should do the right thing and make people buy Ford D3s at gunpoint so your Panther “slamming” has some extra relevance. Because the only way Ford can neglect Panther more while boosting the D3 is via coercion. How else can you fix the sales divide between old and new techonology?
If you’re gonna go, might as well go out with a 5.7L bang.
More a screech, crunch and splat, really.
Yeah, but faster!
What about a GM Ecotec 2.0L LNF turbo? They can be had in crate form or possibly find one used/rebuilt. They can be made to run on varying degrees of methanol for ludicrous power (as some land-speed racers have done).
What’s with all you guys suggesting fwd and awd drivetrains?
This BC company will sell you a drivetrain designed for the car. They have everything from Cosworth units to modded bike units.
http://super7cars.com/
If you are going with a Miata unit, which is smart, talk to the pros. Flying Miata are the best builders for the money.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?dept=101
On the other hand a Mazdaspeed Miata drivetrain is also epic.
Don’t do an S2000 swap. It is pricey beyond belief. For the money you can get the much more modern and therefore more powerful and fuel efficient GM LNF.
GM Swap
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PONTIAC-SOLSTICE-2-0-TURBO-GXP-LNF-ENGINE-CONVERSION-07_W0QQitemZ200366279524QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2ea6c2cb64&_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116#ht_6398wt_1048
Honda Swap
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/05-honda-s2000-ENGINE-TRANSMISSION-AP2-SK2-F22-F22C1_W0QQitemZ200175010232QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2e9b5c41b8&_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116#ht_2182wt_1028
+1 on the 5.7 but it’s got to be “A Hemi” Dude!
A Chrysler product might just be cheap enough now and it really is not a bad motor.
I wouldn’t pass on Caterham, however. If its a good deal, you can always be unique later.
The I-4 out of a Ranger would be a good substitute for a Zetec. The 2.3l (newer) is the same as in the Mazda3, Fusion twins, Escape triplets but it’s already been turned around the way you need it and if you found a manual version, the transmission might slip in there too.
That makes a lot of sense, really. From what I can tell, it and the Miata’s powerplant are probably my better choices and the Ranger engine seems pretty common.
Any thoughts on either the current Duratec or the older 2.3? I don’t see many new Rangers scrapped, but there are piles of the older models.
This BC company will sell you a drivetrain designed for the car. They have everything from Cosworth units to modded bike units.
I actually got started talking to them. They generally sell the complete car (and put me onto the Hayabusa 0-100-to-the-grave-in-3-seconds engine) and seem like really nice people.
I’m amazed the B&B have completely overlooked what is arguably the greatest I-4 ever in the form of the:
Mitsubishi 4G63
195 hp/195 lb. ft. with the stock Garrett 14B turbo, 7500 rpm redline. You can get into the 200s with an intake and boost control. The stock internals will easily handle 300 hp. They are a bit on the heavy side, so the engine doesn’t rev as quickly as you’d expect.
Just make sure it’s salvaged from a ’90-’94 Eagle Talon, Mitsubishi Eclipse, or Plymouth Laser. I would avoid anything from the ’95-’99 years due to the known camshaft issues.
Look, here’s a crate 4G63 just down the road in freaking TORONTO for $1500
Toronto 4G63
If you owned a Caterham with a Jaguar AJ6 or AJ16 engine, you would have one of the coolest cars ever.
I don’t know how do-able something like that is though.
The engine in Toronto is being sold by Tiger. They don’t pretest their engines. They do however do exchanges if they sell you a bad unit. So buy locally from them or not at all.
This has been a dream project of mine for quite a while, too.
I also vote for the north/south 2.3 Ranger Duratec, perhaps with a cam swap to change the truckish characteristics. The Zetec is well supported but there are a few issues to address when turning it sideways from intended. Allowances must be made for the termostat/radiator coupling (as it will now be facing back to the firewall) and other such issues, like the oilpan, that others have taken care of, but pretty much require UK sourced parts.
The other issue is the trans, if you want to get away from truck type gearing. UK kitcars are based heavily on the Sierra 5speed that basically isn’t available here outside of the few Merkurs floating around. Since the Duratec is a Mazda motor, I suspect, but have never had confirmed, that the RX-8 6speed would bolt up. I think I read somewhere that our ubiquitous T-5 fits the wider SV with a little hammer “persuading” of some crossbars.
Quad4Rods can supply a bellhousing, but they’re pricey.
Hondas rotate the wrong way for these purposes and would require stripping a S2000 or a pricey dedicated racing trans.
Bike motors are popular because the Brits get a tax break on engines under 1000cc, but then you have to solve the reverse problem.
Of course, the easiest American solution would probably be stripping a Miata. Westfield has a version using a Miata donor, so help could at least be a domestic call.
The scratch built movement call their cars “locosts” and google is your friend.
Good luck.
The other issue is the trans, if you want to get away from truck type gearing
This is why I was wondering about the Pre-Duratec 2.3L. I think this came with a Mazda transmission that saw duty in a lot of Fords, not all of which were Rangers, and that the transmission carried forward to the current Ranger, which gives me the option of that engine in the future.
ETA: Yep. the Ranger still uses this transmission. The engine seems to have been used by every four-cylinder American Ford from 1980 onward. Not sure if that’s a good thing…
Rangers seem a lot more common than Miatas in these parts, too.
Bike motors are popular because the Brits get a tax break on engines under 1000cc, but then you have to solve the reverse problem.
Which, I understand, is done with a separate transmission, or your feet. There is something amusingly retro about getting out and pushing when you need to go backwards.
Be a man and use the Hayabusa! On the right road, you can actually go back in time! Buy stock in Pampers though.
How is this even a choice? Get the car and drop the RS performance V8 in it. 40-valve, 2.4 liter, 10,000 rpms, and hits 500hp with a supercharger!
As much as I hate the engines, the seven is one place where a rotary is justified. It’s not a daily driver, so the fuel economy and reliability issues are not relevant.
More importantly, while the trivial difference in weight between an inline-4 and a rotary engine does not matter in a >3,000 pound, 4 seat car (are you listening Mazda), it does matter in a ~1,500 pound seven.
The pre-Duratec 2.3 is the Pinto Iron Duke. It’s heavy, but it’s slow.
BTW, if you don’t score the project, can you hook a brother up with the details?
I thought that a rotary powered seven would be a great thing until I heard one. There’s some video floating about on the interwebs of one and it’s about the worst sounding automobile I’ve ever heard. And that’s coming from an RX8 owner…
My suggestion is a either a 2.0 Alfa with webers (about the prettiest thing that will easily fit) or a Alfa V6. Also very nice to look at, but incredible sounding. Both can be had reasonably and still be perfectly effective, yet rarely tried.
With this type of cars, power is not the focus. If it’s too powerful, the entire car may fall apart during acceleration.
Ease of installation, reliability and light weight should be the priorities. Thus, I would suggest a Corolla engine.
“TheRedCar :
My suggestion is a either a 2.0 Alfa with webers (about the prettiest thing that will easily fit) or a Alfa V6. Also very nice to look at, but incredible sounding. Both can be had reasonably and still be perfectly effective, yet rarely tried.”
The Alfa 4 would be a wonderful choice, but a lot pricier than a Duratec. The V6 would require sourcing the uber-rare V6 transmission, or using the De-Dion rear end. I’ve thought about that project, and woke up sweating.
Honestly having owned both Alfa’s and now a Focus I’d go with the Zetec or Duratec, they both have Alfa qualities and in a 1500 lb car would be plenty fast enough.
Good luck! As the father of a 2.5 year old about the only time I get for projects is nap time, unless your wife is very understanding of your need for “garage time”.
I have a buddy that built one with the Mazda Rotary. He is working on getting the fuel curve right, but there is endless torque, right up to ludicrous speed! Not a car for the faint of heart, and certainly not for just any driver!
Do NOT get a “pre-Duratec” 2.3L. They are a POS from waaay back. First designed for the 62 Falcon of all things. Lumpy, slow, crude. Lastly used in Tempos, Rangers and base LX Mustangs. Mated to the T5 it’s agony with a heavy clutch and a ground pounding 88 hp. I don’t give a sh!t how light the Caterham is, this ain’t the plant for it.
Now, a Mazda 2.3, totally different ball of wax. Buy carefully.
@pshninjian: If you can get in touch with Al Navarro, a Jalopnik commenter, he is the man to talk to about this.
He has a Caterham, goes to the meetups, and periodically takes it to Tail Of The Dragon.
http://www.gardenstatesevens.org/
What? Nobody suggested the natural choice (albeit more hard to find than a Miata or Duratec):
A Lotus Twin Cam, or if you’re old school, a Coventry Climax.
The SR16VE? Way over-rated… you need to get right up into the stratosphere to access its power.
The easiest swap that makes sense is the SR20DE… that’s available with a modern north-south transmission that’s built for a sportscar… which is available in both five-speed and six-speed flavors.
And it’s darn light, being all-aluminum… compare that to the iron-block 4AGE and 13B… which means that the weight penalty for it being bigger than the others is not that big. It’s rated at 140 hp, but it revs freely to 7500 rpm (or 8000 if you chip the box) and it doesn’t take much work to make more power with the package…
Or mix and match a Silvia SR20 transmission with the SR20VE.. which makes about 190 horsepower and has lots more torque than either the 4AGE 20V (nice top end, but that’s all it has… I actually like the standard SR20 better) or the SR16. It’s not too expensive, either.
Stick with a non-turbo engine first. Get intimately acquainted with the car, sort the suspension set-up out… work out the bugs, get the car running right… do a few track days and autocrosses… and then decide if either the car or you could handle more power. The sudden application of turbo-laggy, axle-twisting torque in a front-engined, rear-wheel drive car whose rear-end weighs just a gnat’s hair over what you weigh probably isn’t for the faint of heart. The gradual ramp-up of power for a high-revving naturally aspirated mill, on the other hand, will make it more forgiving to drive.
All depends on what your end goal is. To keep and cruise around, smoothness,sound and engine appearance matter.
How about a Rover/Buick 3.8 liter aluminum V8?
Add some chrome externals and lots of exhaust plumbing for a smooth and handsome power plant.
Extreme power is nice, but where are you going to use it?
@wookie76: The “crank” (eccentric shaft, actually) for a rotary is about in the middle of the engine. The transmissions necessarily have the the input shaft in a much different location than those for a “boinger” engine.
I’d drop a pre-PD TDI in it, but then again, I’m crazy. ;)
–chuck
First of all, definitely go with something designed to be mounted longitudinally; otherwise you’re begging for endless headaches for the prize of having the soul of a Corolla in your sports roadster. A rotary would perfectly suit the mission of a Caterham and would be the easiest to fit, but since you don’t seem to be the adventurous type in this regard I’d stick with a Ranger engine and transmission.
I’ve got a Toyota 4AGE with twin Webers in my Seven – fits real nice. A V8 would be a bear to fit. I’d either go with a Ford Duratec/Zetec for maximum resale value or a 20 valve 4AGE – silvertop ones are dirt cheap and the four throttle bodies are beautiful.
Just watch the height of motors – things like the S2000 motor are extremely tall.
Here is a nice list of available options for the Locost builders: http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=83