Mark writes:
I have a 2003 WRX with 198,000 miles. Only non-standard maintenance repair so far was a new driver side head and valves at 165,000 because a valve was hung and the head was starting to crack. Everything else, including clutch and turbo are original. Unfortunately, now the vehicle is burning 1.5 – 2qt of oil every 1000 miles. There are no leaks. I am tempted to trade it in for the nominal amount (Maybe $1-2k) and take advantage of the current new car incentives. However I hate to buy a new car if I can just feed this paid for WRX oil for another 20-30,000 miles. What do you think. Should I feed the car oil until the engine/turbo explodes or retire it and get another car?
Sajeev answers:
First off, let me say that I am not a Subie Genius, and there could be a good (cheap?) answer to this problem if you spent a good hour digging for information on a Subaru forum. And with that, I’ll give you my causes for this problem:
Clogged PCV valve compounded with engine blow by. If you don’t know how old your PCV is, get a new one immediately. Blow-by is a common problem on many older cars, especially those running under forced induction. Installing a breather filter (not legal in some states, but not hard to revert back to stock) in place of the oil filler cap will help. At your mileage a new PCV with breather filter is a good idea.
Check for blue smoke coming from the tailpipe, especially right after you twist the key. With high mileage come larger tolerances in piston rings, valve seals, turbo seals or bearings. Not a big deal, that’s what happens when a car ages. And WRXs aren’t known for long-term durability, anything with a turbo is gonna have issues at this mileage. If you really wanna know, get a compression test: but that won’t be cheap on a boxer motor.
Maybe you can squeeze more life (20-30k, as stated) if you keep going as-is. Maybe things will get better if you switch to thicker oil, or maybe things will get worse.
I’d recommend driving some new cars, see if you fall in love with something, and then get a feel for the market with an ad for your WRX on Craigslist. You’re gonna be in for some serious cash outlay one way or another, so you might as well have some fun while there’s still time.
198k in a hyper highwinder 4 banger????
My gawd, man. That car owes you nothing. Treat yourself to a new one when it hits the big 2-oh!!!
200k seems like a good innings for a hyperactive racer like a WRX. Maybe it has indeed reached the end of the road. But in the current economic climate, a new car is not a prudent thing.
I would definitely try out Sajeev’s cheap fix. If that fails, try to find a low mileage WRX that some budding Jack Baruth stuffed into the scenery and do a heart transplant. It should come out to a whole lot less than a new Subie.
Besides, the new ones have strayed from the path of righteousness. Hatchbacks and all that. Have they taken a leaf out of the Chris Bangle design manual? The one that is titled “How to alienate your brand’s hardcore supporters.”
Buy it another engine and shoot for 300K miles.
1) Check PCV as per stated. 2) Check turbo via Subaru-specific mechanic. I honestly wouldn’t trust the turbo at that interval; mine was redone well before that as preventative maintenance. 3) Aren’t you tired of the clutch shudder on the original clutch by now? :)
Also, if you didn’t want to trade-in, a part out would make you more than $1-2k.
The best car in the world is one that is paid for and doesn’t cost you anything to keep driving. So if Sajeev’s cheap fixes don’t work, I’d just keep adding oil until the car comes to a smoking, clattering stop. THEN I’d sell it to some 17-year-old dreamer for $2k.
I’ll bet you get at least a year or two’s worth of free driving out of the deal, while the next owner inherits a financial sink hole. The engine is only the most obvious expense; there are probably 6,000 other aging parts just waiting for their turn.
200K and she’s still a daily driver? Congrats and welcome to the Crown Vic mileage club.
How’s the rest of the car? I know about as much about Subies as you probably do about Panthers but if your car is in good shape otherwise then how hard/expensive is that engine swap?
Holy cow 200k on on 03 ? that is like 30k+ miles/year!
My 2005 STi has gone from like 26,900 to to 27,800 from January -> July :)
When the engine goes kaput, rebuild it with toys… :)
In the meantime, kill it with some nitrous.
200K and she’s still a daily driver? Congrats and welcome to the Crown Vic mileage club.
*shake head* 200k is when a diesel gets broken in… ;)
But on a WRX? Like it was mentioned before – that car doesn’t owe you a penny!
Check out Colorado Component Remanufacturing, ccrengines.com.
The 2.0 liter DOHC engine is $4650 including shipping to anywhere in the US, plus a $900 core charge.
These guys have a very good rep on Subie forums.
Meanwhile, hope my LGT lasts as well!
impressive mileage with not any major problems. i would go for an engine transplant, but if you think it’s time to grow up, a trade in would be beneficial. but the alternative might not be as pleasant to drive, and to own…
As long as a)you don’t need to add oil in between tanks of gas and b)the plugs don’t foul then the oil consumption is tolerable in my book.
Typically this means you can run it until it uses about 1 quart in 200-300 miles, or about double what you have now.
The car sounds like a keeper, the engine not so much.
My mechanic swaps in used engines imported from Japan. He has never received a bad one. They have a six month warranty. A replacement WRX engine would run about $800 to $1,000, including the turbo. Labor is around 15-hours. Check out Soshin USA.
The engines are relatively low mileage. Japan requires frequent prohibitively expensive vehicle re-certification. It is cost effective for them to replace their cars with new at short intervals.
As long of the rest of the car is in good shape and you like it I’d just add a new engine. I put a new engine into my 1990 Legacy in 2002 at 180k.
If the chassis is in good shape (no rust) and the suspension/brakes, interior and other areas of the car are also in good working order then it may be sensible to go for another engine if that is what is actually needs.
Personally… I’d have a hard time not sinking a bunch of money into it via go-fast parts.
Time to join the ranks of the 2.5L WRX/STI crowd, either via a swap, or a new car.
Keep in mind you may never get a better deal on a new one. You can buy a 09 WRX for 23k with 60 months of 0% financing.
Personally, I’d look into an engine swap if there’s nothing particularly wrong with chassis.
On the other hand, there are some pretty good deals to be ahd out there and you may never see ’em again.
I’m betting it rings from your description, and what I’ve read elsewhere, though as others have said it’s not really a surprise with the miles and all. A leakdown test wouldn’t be hard to do yourself, it will require pulling the air intake bits and the washing fluid reservoir. I would suggest a 2.5L hybrid, with a new turbo. Both parts can be STI takeoffs, and found cheaply from sources such as NASIOC and IWSTI.
And if you do look for an 09, be very, very careful. Early build date 09 WRX’s are throwing rod bearings and are requiring a new block, and often a new turbo. This is again documented on NASIOC, and while under warranty, it would be ironic to buy a new car that breaks before the old car did.
Shoot, for $2k I would buy it right now if my wife wouldn’t kill me. If you don’t want to invest on replacing the motor, get what you can for it in trade for something new(er) with less miles on it, or put it on Craig’s list. You don’t want to wait until the motor finally barfs its guts or you will only get a fraction of what you would get for it as a runner.
Like Sajeev said, the first thing to check out is the compression check to start locating the the cause. I don’t know how do it yourself capable you are, but you can buy a decent compression gauge at harbor freight for $40, or $20 when it’s on sale. The three major things that can cause this much oil consumption are the piston rings, valve seals, and turbo seals. With this kind of consumption, even if the PCV is bad, it’s likely not the only problem, but a cheep fix, and worth a shot. The compression check will help you narrow it down to either the rings, if it fails, or the other two if it passes. If you pass the compression check, take off the intercooler and notice how much oil residue is present on it, the turbo out, and throttle. A light coating of oil is normal, especially at your mileage, but if there is a big amount, the turbo seals are probably gone. If it looks pretty clean, it’s likely the valve seals.
None of these problems are big enough to justify selling it for $2K. Even if you really want a new car, fix the problem first, and you will get more money for the car without the problem.
At your mileage, the most likely problem is the turbo seals leaking. car-part.com lists a used turbo for your car for as low as $95. I have no idea on the condition. You can build up your current into something really fast for less than the new one would cost, if you were looking for something like that.
High mileage Subaru = big headaches. Trade that in ASAP while it’s still running.
+1 Turbo seals and check the oil outlet hose from the turbo to the pan. If it gets sludged up excessive oil may build up in the turbo exacerbating potentially worn seals.
If it were my decision, trade-in would be the only solution. You’ve got your money’s worth out of it, and dealers are seriously desperate right now.
A quick fix for a few more miles or an import engine swap are all sensible advice but if you can afford it, I would take advantage of the carpocalypse a go for new. There are some seriously good deals and 0% financing on offer right now and with new you’re always assured that you are the first to abuse it :)
We had a 99 Rodeo that would fart a quart of oil every 500 miles whenever the PCV valve would go
It started doing it around 25,000 miles and kept up the habit until we figured out the PCV valve at about 70K
Changing the PCV valve helped DRAMATICALLY and we ended up doing it yearly.
What makes a Subaru a Subaru. No-one who read this has to ask!
I say, repay Fuji Heavy for the brilliant and dependable hardware they provided you and buy a new one!
I’ll bet you get at least a year or two’s worth of free driving out of the deal, while the next owner inherits a financial sink hole.
There, in one sentence, is what is wrong with America today.
In all probability, someone buying a used car with over 200K miles on the dial is less wealthy than the guy who is replacing it with a new one. To knowingly stick the poor schmuck with a ‘financial sink hole’ is not something I would want on my conscience. Do unto others, and so on.
Too bad your car isn’t a gas guzzler (should have bought the STi model). Otherwise, you could use the cash-for-clunkers taxpayer money giveaway and turn your car into $3500 or $4500.
this is a turbo issue – get a turbo rebuild.
First of all – there are so many wrx forums, you can find the answers to any problem there. Original turbos? I would start looking there as you might just need new turbo seals.
If you find you need a new engine and you’d rather get a new car, I see nothing wrong with selling this car on craigslist. Any buyer would not be some poor schlub who you are taking advantage of. More than likely they would be a wrx fan who would either want it for a parts car or want to do the engine swap themselves. If the body’s in good shape and the chassis doesn’t feel flexed out yet I would do the swap myself. I just got a new engine in my 91 300zx after I blew the old one (it had 140k on it). Cost me $4k, but I felt like it was money well spent as I really like the tuning I’ve done to the suspension and the interior is mint, and I know everything that’s going on with the car (devil you know and all that). So I made that choice over selling the body (I could’ve gotten $2k whole or $3k plus parted out) and buying a lower mileage used car for the same amount I spent on the engine plus sales. Anytime you buy a used car with no warranty you have to budget at least $2k in needed repairs, if you’re lucky you won’t spend it, but plan on it.
It always amazes me that folks think Japanese cars are so delightful when they always seem to need major mechanical work by 200K miles. This car is only 6 years old! And it already needed a HEAD replaced?!? I’ve had 300K+ Volvos, VWs and Saabs, and currently have a 200K ’93 Volvo 960 and 200K ’92 Saab 900 Turbo Convertible. Neither uses so much as a drop of oil between changes, and neither has had ANY engine mechanical work done, AT ALL. Nor did any of the other various European cars I have had. The Saab has its original turbo even. Nor have any of them rusted out in Maine’s salty climate, other than the 450K mile ’87 Volvo 740 – but that car started life in VT. It still ran perfectly, but the floors were going.
But as to the original question – if the rest of the car is in good shape, and it does turn out to be more than bad turbo seals, put a used Japanese engine in it. Friend did that with a Miata – $1500 installed a year or so ago. But again, I think it is appalling that he needed a new(er) engine at 140K….
You should be able to get a rebuilt turbo, a rebuild job, or if you’re mechanically inclined, a kit to rebuild it yourself, for a few hundred.
ex: http://www.blouchturbo.com/upgrades/
@krhodes1: Sports cars are driven harder than Volvo’s typically. My engine was fine, but that day I was racing it on a mountain road, keeping it close to redline up the mountain. It happened to be the first hot day of the year. I was really, really enjoying myself. Just pushed it too hard and it spun a rod bearing. 18 year old car, should’ve waited til I was coming down the mountain to really push it, ah well, an expensive mistake.
However, there are many many Hondas and Toyotas that make it well over 300k. My old neighbor has a 94 Civic with 370k and it’s still running strong as ever. An ex was given an 86 Camry with over 200k and we put an additional 60k on it before the auto transmission gave out. In retrospect we should’ve gone to a junkyard and sourced a replacement, but I didn’t work on cars much then, living in nyc and no garage and a mechanic would’ve charged over $1k for the job.
krhodes,
Your assertion that European cars are more reliable and last longer than Japanese cars runs contrary to just about everybody’s personal experience and every vehicle reliability study. European manufacturers, including Saab, Volvo, VW, all have major quality and reliability issues. This is a major reason why they cannot gain market share in the US.
“1.5 – 2qt of oil every 1000 miles”
Look at it this way… with all the savings you will have in oil changes alone for the next five years… you can probably finance a new AVEO
my ’88 Saab 900 SPG Turbo is 21 years old, it’s SAAB, has 150k on the clock, and doesn’t burn a drop of oil.
Subaru, i’m disappointed.
Maybe this is just a case of “they don’t build ’em like they used to”?
@xenopower – I made no ascertations as to the reliability of European cars. I am speaking of the durability of European cars. Japanese cars in general will tolerate neglect pretty well. They start every day, all the electrical bits keep working wonderfully, and they don’t give any problems for 150K miles. Very RELIABLE.
But at the same time, the tinworm is munching on them, and by 150K they can be blowing the blues out the tailpipe (or need a head, evidently). There are essentially NO 15yo Japanese cars of any brand left in my part of the country. Our annual safety inspection retires them quite efficiently. Especially when you consider how many gazillion more cars the Japanese marques sell than the Europeans, the fact that 15-20yo VWs, Volvos and Saabs are everywhere here says a whole lot about thier DURABILITY. European cars need more fixing, but they sure do last a lot longer.
I suppose if you are the sort that runs to the dealer every time some little thing needs doing then they are not the cars for you. If you can DIY, then you can get a heck of a nice car for peanuts, and keep it a very long time. Otherwise, buy something Japanese, keep it until it implodes, and sweep it to the curb.
And as I have pointed out on this forum several times – I just don’t get where any of these cars are particularly unreliable, unless somehow VW (especially), Saab, and Volvo send only thier very best cars to New England. All cars have thier issues, a good friend has a highway driven, dealer maintained 160K mile ’02 Honda Accord that is on its third transmission and is driving him crazy with check engine lights. Another friend has a 170K ’02 Jetta TDI that has needed a MAF sensor in the 140K that he has owned it. Cost $80, 5mins to replace ourselves. I know more people with needy Hondas than I do people with needy Jettas. Go figure.
Since it’s paid off, I’d do the cheap fix and keep an eye on the oil level. It’s much cheaper to put oil in the car than to buy a new one for now.
The car’s worth more than 2k running, you could probably hock it for at least twice that, even in its current condition. With that many miles on the original clutch, your car may be due for some major maintenance soon.
An engine swap at this point could be considered a bit extreme as far as cost goes.
I vaguely remember the following for tracing oil leaks:
If you get oil smoke during acceleration, most likely it’s rings/blowby/turbo bearing.
If the smoke occurs during deacceleration, most likely it’s valve seals allowing oil to get sucked into the engine.
Clogged PCV (valve/collapsing hose/etc) or other malfunctioning emission system components are also possibilities.
BTW, older Subies often have head gasket, timing belt, and wheel bearing failures. Good idea to keep tabs on all of those.
Meanwhile, given the WRX is now 265 HP and has other enthusiast goodies such as track-tuned suspension, and that odds are stacked for buyers for a little while, it might be time to get a new WRX, or possibly a 1-2 year older one.
My sister-in-law owned a Subaru XT a long time ago under my recommendation. The car ran exceptionally well until it hit over 10 years of age. Subie’s boxer engine is not easy to fix. An oil pump job can set you back $2K. At the mileage of your car, it has given you more than what you paid for. Most cars that age will start giving you knit picky issues. Like electrical systems dying on you unexpectedly, water pumps failing, etc. If some inconvenience of not being able to drive your car from time to time isn’t an issue, it might be cheaper to just keep fixing it. But on the other hand, there might be time some major component is going to cost you. At the mileage you have, I would budget for a new(er) car. There is a reason why you don’t see any truly old Subarus on the road, whereas you often see old Toyota’s BMW’s GM’s (yes old GM’s) etc.
Gardiner Westbound +1
You have an engine problem, not a car problem. If your engine needs major service, swap out the lump and keep the car, put the $500+ a month to buy a new WRX the bank for 2-3 more years and you’ll thank yourself later.
I once dropped a K.Watanabe used engine into an Accord that was in good shape but the engine was getting soft. It cost me $625 installed with a six month warranty from Watanabe and it gave me years of dead-nuts reliable service until I sold it to neighbor’s kid as his first car. I heard it soldiered on, carrying him through his college years. Not a bad deal for 6 Benjamins, or in your case, 8-10 Benjamins.
Like Gardiner Westbound said, lightly used Japanese engines from Japan are quite a value. Think on it.
15W-40, 20W-50.
Quick question – keeping in mind (and this is important) this guy drives 30k miles a year and the car already has 200k, what is a reasonable estimate of the cost of keeping it running for one more year?
You could use this oppty to professionally blueprint/balance&rebuild the engine … or you could listen to the VW tdi/Volvo/Saab guy and and go the steel rimmed glasses route for the next 150k of the most boring miles of your life.
If e85 biofuel (=105 octane) is readily available in your neck of the woods, with a stock turbo, 1200cc injectors, new lines and a drop-in fuel pump, you could enjoy 350 lbs wtq on the lowest reading dynometers anywhere.
Here in Kentucky, e85 is $1.– less than premium 93 octane. My 2006 Subaru STi will get the e85 fuel system = 1/3 as $ much to fill the tank, 2x the torque = z06 supercharged/911 turbos etc … Bye bye on stock internals, reliably … Long after any similar vintage vette or 911 gas powered heap of rwd machismo dentistmobile retires to that great big mid life crisis in the sky.
jmo, since it is that high, I assume he’s not picking up those miles in rush hour traffic, but on the freeway. Another reason I think he should keep the car.
e85_STi, E85 will corrode many parts that it comes in contact with. You have to be careful. Just because the car is running, doesn’t meen it’s not doing damage.
I have a 2003 WRX with 198,000 miles…
Don’t care what Stevie Nicks said, the dream IS over.
Sell it. Scrap it. Whatever. Move on. Seriously.
MBella,
I assume he’s not picking up those miles in rush hour traffic,
I have a number of coworkers who drive 50 miles(takes 2 hours) each way to work every day. I’d say, get a condo in the city, nothing is worth 4 hours a day in the car… but I digress.
If you’re doing 100 miles a day in bumper to bumper the cost of keeping a subie with 200k miles on the road, could rapidly exceed the cost of financing one @ 0%.
50 miles each way? 4 hours? They spend half a full work day, each day in traffic. What’s the point of life when that’s your day? You get up, drive to work 2hours. Work I assume about 8 hours with a lunch break in between. Go home, and another 2 hours. Wow, 11 hours, not counting the time they spend getting ready, so add another hour, and half their day is spent for work related activities. I couldn’t do that.
MBella,
50 miles each way? 4 hours? They spend half a full work day, each day in traffic.
I know!! As part of my work I’ve had projects in Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, San Jose, Sacramento and Boston and in each case I’ve worked with people who spend 4+ hours a day in the car.
In many cases these people didn’t even have kids at home, they could have bought a condo a few hundred yards from the office. But, no… they needed the 4 acre 5,000 square foot McMansion is east bumf*ck.
If it were me, I’d go ahead and replace the thing. It has given you a good run of motoring, and the current auto market is 100% in the customers’ court, so I’d recommend going with a new car while the getting is good.
However, I’m told WRX owners are rather fanatical about their cars, so if you’re really that big a fan of your current car then go with the new engine. You can’t lose either way.
Keep the car and do some heart surgery when the thing gives up the ghost. You never come out ahead with a new car. My old E30 318i had 420k on it when it was parked and gutted to make a Cateham 7 replica. If you buy a new one make sure to use the old one as a project and sell off what you don’t use or recycle it(make a little more money) You don’t really qualify for CARS program, neither did I. New payment and insurance is only muted by the finished product of the car I kept for the project. Happy hunting!!
MBella, don’t have to worry about corrosion … e85 isn’t water. It’s alchohol. Replacing the fuel lines/injectors/pumps/retune the car’s chip = good to go.
With the $s saved from buying premium gasoline … and if/when you get tired of only 375 lbs wtq on e85, … why not get some renewable energy bucks, with your own e100?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4262690.html
50 miles each way? 4 hours? They spend half a full work day, each day in traffic. What’s the point of life when that’s your day? You get up, drive to work 2hours. Work I assume about 8 hours with a lunch break in between. Go home, and another 2 hours. Wow, 11 hours, not counting the time they spend getting ready, so add another hour, and half their day is spent for work related activities. I couldn’t do that.…
Picture three hours a day, 2 in a train, 1 in a subway/driving to the train. Add in $360.00/month for the privilage, all while still having to pay for a car to go to the train, and rude people talking on cell phones, loud iPods from six rows away…at least in your car you have your own space. I can’t wait to retire to the mountains of New England!
If what they say about the new replacement engines is true – I’d go for it. This has the round front headlights, which I find adds character to the car (in a bugeye sprite kind of way) and may make it collectible.
You’ll lose more money than repairs will cost (and maybe a couple of treats like a monster stereo) the minute you drive a new car off the lot.
I’ve driven this vintage of wrx and found it too much fun – as in passengers screaming kind of fun.
Just because you’ve gotten your value out of your money on this car is no reason to toss it away for something newer (unless you really just want something newer, and there’s nothing wrong with that), but if the car is basically running well then it makes sense to try to fix it by checking the easy stuff, (PCV, turbo seals, etc) and just Keep on driving it until it does actually fail!
krhodes1:
I am so with you on this my brother! I have owned many Japanese,(subaru toyota isuzu mazda) and many European cars, (Saab vw porsche FIAT alfa romeo Lancia)and there is no question that the euros. are far and away more durable and in my opinion more reliable for the long fun… There’s just no comparison. I just don’t understand the loyalty people have for some Japanese (and other asian) brands….
I think in most cases they have simply never tried anything else!
(Saab vw porsche FIAT alfa romeo Lancia)and there is no question that the euros. are far and away more durable and in my opinion more reliable for the long fun
Do you have any data to back up your claims?
krhodes, grimm,
forget your euro-crap, we all know there ain’t nothin’ tougher than domestic iron:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyF5WsmXRaI
Built Ford Tough.
(Saab vw porsche FIAT alfa romeo Lancia)and there is no question that the euros. are far and away more durable and in my opinion more reliable for the long fun)
ridiculous – it’s a proven fact that Chevys are the toughest, longest lasting vehicles ever made:
jmo:
My only data is my own personal owning experience with the cars mentioned ….. I have owned a lot of cars. The ones that are still a pleasurable owning experience with well over 100K miles are almost always European. They seem to have been engineered with the concept of longevity in mind. I am talking primarily about (foreign) cars built in the 80’s and 90’s.
It does seem to me that this idea is becoming less and less important, these days, as people seem to be more likely to keep a car only a few years (if that) and then trade it in on a new one..
xenopower :
You’re being funny right? those links to old tv commercials are a joke? I wouldn’t be caught dead in a chevy truck built in the last 20 years! (or any GM product for that matter) My 1999 F-350 has been only Okay… 205K miles…. This last year it has been in the shop more than not, and has cost me half again as much as I paid for it! No joke.
Those tow hooks are DAMN strong though…. I accidentally took out a small concrete block wall with one of mine!
You’re still on the original clutch at 198,000 miles? My jaw just hit the floor.
My WRX’s clutch went out at 31,000 – then again, I bought it used, and the previous owner may have just abused the hell out of it…
Where the hell did you find that hood?