Jon Lauckner, New GM’s Vice President of Global Program Management, picked up the FastLane webchat-a-phone and confirmed that he can’t confirm a final price for its tire-squawking (true story!) Hail Mary hybrid. This despite the fact that the Volt—or at least a small squad of hand-built prototypes—is due at the Chevy showroom—or at least down at the steps of Congress for the next ’round of bailout hearings—by the end of 2010. “Hi Dan,” Lauckner says, greeting the e-interrogator daring GM to whip out its sticker. “We typically do not lock in on pricing until about 3-6 months prior to start of production. The reason is primarily so we have an opportunity to take a look at the market, competitors and other factors. So stay tuned.” So to speak, ’cause that issue ain’t sorted out neither . . .
[Comment From Lev Blekher]
How does GM decide where to draw the line between maximizing the main purpose of the Volt even it it means unfamiliar characteristics (engine revving at stops), and making it friendly to the average consumer by decreasing it’s potential slightly, in favor of more comfortable feel (engine revs match speed, etc.) Thanks.
[Reply from Lauckner]
That is something we will decide during the development phase we’re in right now when we finalize the calibration of the engine in various conditions. We want to avoid unfamiliar characteristics to the maximum possible extent – we want the Volt to behave just like a normal automobile.
Maximum extent possible? Do I detect a bit of Where’s Jeff (i.e., Wiggle room)? But we have some new information! Lauckner says the Volt will be a thrifty, refined little thing, even when the EV-only mode is depleted.
I think most customers will be surprised at the refinement of the ICE. It will operate at several RPM points (not roaring) and the charge sustaining fuel economy (gas engine on) will be much more than 30 mpg.
Whoa! Dude! Where’s my plug-in hybrid electric/gas car?
Or buy a Prius and get 50+
Or buy a Insight and get the same. Today. With no BS from companies that are not going out of business.
“30 MPG+”? They seriously don’t have an exact number yet? I get 45-52 in my 6 year old Jetta TDI. Plus it has a proven power train.
Or like GS650G says, buy a Prius. It’s been around for 10 years so Toyota’s got the bugs worked out. If Camaros are coming out of the factory with defects galore, I’d hate to be one of the Volt Guinea pigs.
wiggle room??
I’ll show you wiggle room…
Remember, that’s 30+ alleged miles per gallon AFTER you’ve depleted the batteries. I would go whole weeks without doing that.
charge sustaining fuel economy (gas engine on) will be much more than 30 mpg
Ambiguous much?
Why even mention 30mpg? Is that the low point; batteries depleted in electro-motive mode and at what road speeds? EPA highway only?
“Charge sustaining”? is that electric assist on take-off? So some electric generation is going on, or the battery hits say 10% remaining and that level is maintained? How can they drive the wheels and charge at the same time? Is there an electric motor set PLUS a generator?
Some many questions, so little (of other people’s) money.
This is a significant issue, and it clearly appears GM is starting to lower expectations. The Volt was always pitched as getting 50mpg in charge-sustaining mode (after battery depletion). I argued back then that a serial hybrid is not as fuel efficient as a parallel hybrid (Prius), because the combined losses in the conversions from gas engine, generator, voltage conversions, and electrical motors are larger than in the direct mechanical conversion in a Prius.
It’s a relevant issue too, because the Volt’s attraction, and one strength, is its ability to go on extended drives, as compare to pure BEVs. And the Volt faithful always bandied about the 50mpg number.
clearly appears GM is starting to lower expectations
Mine can’t go any lower.
30mpg is not bad, especially in a car that, were it to be used in my typical pattern, wouldn’t be firing the gas engine more than once a month.
I don’t think GM has handled the car’s development and marketing at all well—mostly because they never intended to make it in the first place—but the idea of a hybrid that’s primarily electric and uses the gas engine to extend it’s range is not a bad idea at all.
The problem, really, is that this car is the poster child for what happens when you can’t keep it in your pants, metaphorically speaking. Has GM approached this like a real product and not a Hail Mary, it probably wouldn’t have been so bad. But GM can’t do that; shilling the next big promise while grinding out yesterday’s margin queens is standard operating procedure for them, and having Lutz blow off about what the car would do before it was more than a cocktail-napkin sketch didn’t help.
GM treated this car, if you’re being generous, like the VW did the Bugatti Veyron: the head honchos got up, told us what it would look like and what it could do and then left it to actual designers to make it happen. That worked with the Veyron because, well, they cost a million-plus each. At $20K (or $30K, or $40K.. Ok, $5K tops. Maybe 50 before tax breaks) that kind of executive-wet-dreaming-turned-reality is harder to do.
I don’t think it’s so significant. In all due respect, Paul. Because the range extender is there to diminish range anxiety. Not to make the Volt an all-things-for-all-people car.
The point is, you’re supposed to use the electric mode for 95% of your driving. Serial is not good for taxis, travelling salesmen, or people towing boats. If you are a heavy user, it’s not for you. Then, better to drive a (God forbid) Diesel.
You can make the range extender extremely efficient, so that it gives you great MPG. But that makes it more expensive. And possibly heavier too, which would diminish your electric driving range.
I for one think a Wankel range extender is a good idea. But how can this be, if a rotary engine is less economical? The thing is, a Wankel is small, quiet, lightweight, and thus you’re not carrying around a lot of baggage you hardly ever use. I wouldn’t mind an even lower fuel economy rating in extended-range mode.
30 MPG and they already bring that car in 2010 in very small numbers? Wow, our oil dependency will be over shortly…
brettc: if you compare to diesel, you have to take into account diesel has 13% more energy per gallon and 13% more CO2 per gallon. I’m sure the volt is better than a Jetta with gasoline engine (it will be in the shop as frequently, though)
The Volt program has already served its purpose. It got Wagoner to the second round of bailout hearings in politically-correct fashion.
rocketrodeo :
July 23rd, 2009 at 10:28 am
Remember, that’s 30+ alleged miles per gallon AFTER you’ve depleted the batteries. I would go whole weeks without doing that.
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Does it even matter whether it’s before or after? A Honda Fit beats 30mpg without a big battery.
# spyspeed :
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:17 pm
The Volt program has already served its purpose. It got Wagoner to the second round of bailout hearings in politically-correct fashion.
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I agree, partially.
The Volt program sure served Wagoner well. But it’s not over yet. Now, Chairman Obama must think of an exit strategy for the Volt to justify his own agenda.
Remember, that’s 30+ alleged miles per gallon AFTER you’ve depleted the batteries. I would go whole weeks without doing that.
You will go whole weeks under ideal conditions, but if you’re stuck in traffic with the A/C going, you could be there in less than an hour .
Is the Volt an economy car that costs a lot or a green car that costs a lot? What part of this car costs the most? Clearly they are not opting for best in the world seats or appointments.
I just hope the Feds don’t make me buy one or face consequences of some kind.
My 05 xB gets 31 mpg in real city driving, and I didn’t pay $40k. Or whatever the subsidized price of the Volt will be.
But I can’t brag to my celebrity neighbors about how I’m saving the environment (or GM), even though the xB was once found to be ‘greener’ than a Prius throughout its life cycle.
@wsn:
I agree. For my driving 25 mile round trip commute on the highway, I could go a long time before running on gas.
So what if the car gets in the 30 mpg range after the battery is depleted, you are still driving 40 miles before it kicks in! So on a 70 mile trip you burn less than 1 gallon of gas, vs at least 2 gallons with a compact car. Still comes out to at least 70mpg. Factor in the around town trips and your average mileage will be even higher.
Buyers will have to assess their driving habits to see if this car will make sense for them. It works for me. Too bad it’s so ugly..
The numbers still don’t add up. If you compare a compact car averaging 28 mpg combined selling for $15000 after discounts vs the Volt at around $30,000 after discounts(subsidies), it will take you more than 15 years for the gas savings to pay you back at current gas prices. Maybe gas will be higher by the time Volt comes out.
Maybe gas will be higher by the time Volt comes out.
I’m sure GM is praying gas hits $6, well expect for all those SUV clogging the lots.
We all know gas isn’t getting cheaper, but if it stays around $3-4 a gallon for awhile people will not be rushing out to buy this thing or any other hybrid. Most people will not do the math, but gas at $5-6 a gallon causes panic… and that kind of panic is the only thing that is going to sell a $40K hybrid.
Does it even matter whether it’s before or after? A Honda Fit beats 30mpg without a big battery.
Of course it does. Here’s an example: I do about 10-50km a day in my Fit, all urban. I’m using gas all the time.
* In my Fit, I’m always getting ~30mpg. So I’m always refueling it because I’m always using gas
* In a Volt, I wouldn’t use gas at all except for the few times I make the long rural haul up to Ottawa once a month.
Let me spell it out for you: if you perform the typical semi-urban commute, you will not use fuel with the Volt. No gas put into the tank, no gas burned. Period. End of story.
Yes, there’s certainly a value equation to be considered here, but if that’s the case you may as well buy a used Geo Metro or new Tata Nano and optimize your place on the curve. Any takers for the Tata Nano? Anyone? Bueller?
I think the Volt is a good idea because it does much of what the Prius does, only a little further along the utility-vs-efficiency curve: for a small sacrifice in ultimate utility, you get a mode of transport that is significantly more efficient than anything else on the road today.
I don’t think that’s a bad thing in and of itself, I just wish it was being pursued by a company that wasn’t so cripplingly stupid.
I can’t wait until these units hit the road during a snow storm-traffic jam. Owners will have choice between staying warm and having enough battery power left to get home, especially those who think they can commute without using any gas. I wonder if the “General” has taken any prototypes up to the cold weather testing center in northern Ontario.
“I can’t wait until these units hit the road during a snow storm-traffic jam. Owners will have choice between staying warm and having enough battery power left to get home, especially those who think they can commute without using any gas.”
An excellent example why the extender engine vehicle will be better than just a plug in on those lousy days each winter. The rest of the time no problem, no gas usage.
I’m no Volt fan (it will never make a profit), but I still can’t comprehend how much ignorance there is about it. If the half the pistonheads on this site can’t grok it, then what chance does John Q. Public.
Exhibit A – To all those who say “My XYZ gets more than 30MPG” are missing the point entirely. How far can you go with the engine turned off?
Exhibit B – To those who fear getting stuck in hot/cold traffic and using up the battery. That is what the engine is for. At that point, you have the same worries as everyone else (running out of gas).
Let me spell it out for you: if you perform the typical semi-urban commute, you will not use fuel with the Volt. No gas put into the tank, no gas burned. Period. End of story.
That is exactly what people cannot understand…even now.
What “ICE-only” mode? In everything I’d read from GM before there was no ICE-only mode, but the ICE would be an onboard generator charging the batteries and thereby powering the elec. motor to move the car. Now there’s a time when only the ICE is moving the car (not being a generator)? When did that change, or is this another example of people not knowing the difference between the Volt system and a two-mode hybrid?
Hank
Good point. My bad. Headline amended.
Let me spell it out for you: if you perform the typical semi-urban commute, you will not use fuel with the Volt. No gas put into the tank, no gas burned. Period. End of story.
…and if you’re doing such a commute there’s an awfully large penalty toting the heavy engine around while you do it! Without the ICE, for either a weight saving, or packaging changes, or more battery what would be the range? 60miles? 100miles? Would that have provided a product with potentially a greater audience???
I’m not convinced GM did the work on the likely market, the affordability, the appropriateness of the approach etc…
That is exactly what people cannot understand…even now.
No, I don’t understand it. For the sake of having a differentiated “Wundercar”, they’ve gone down a technically poor route rather than getting a proper hybrid to work. You know, the sort of energy pro/con compromise math that Toyota did.
…and if you’re doing such a commute there’s an awfully large penalty toting the heavy engine around while you do it! Without the ICE, for either a weight saving, or packaging changes, or more battery what would be the range? 60miles? 100miles? Would that have provided a product with potentially a greater audience???
No, because people would still worry about the one or two really long trips they may take that year, or how long they would be stuck somewhere charging if they overestimated their remaining range.
You have to remember that the main problem with a limited range in a BEV is that once that range hits zero you will have to spend many hours recharging the batteries. In a regular car, it isn’t a big deal, since it only takes a minute or two to pump some gas into the tank. That is the purpose of the range extender in the Volt: it essentially allows your electric car to be “recharged” in a few minutes at a gas station. Most days of the year, no gasoline will be burned in daily driving, but for those times when the electric range isn’t enough that gasoline engine is always there as an insurance policy.
No, I don’t understand it. For the sake of having a differentiated “Wundercar”, they’ve gone down a technically poor route rather than getting a proper hybrid to work. You know, the sort of energy pro/con compromise math that Toyota did.
I don’t think this is a technically poor solution, just one that’s been exceedingly badly marketed.
The Volt works out quite well—better than the Prius—if the primary use of the vehicle is urban and/or commuting. The Prius works well as a general-purpose vehicle. Further long the curve you have small-displacement turbodiesels if you’re planning thousand-kilometer stretches frequently. Different needs, different tools.
Again, the Volt falls down because of GM’s incompetence, corporate ADHD and general marketing cluelessness. Part of why the Prius does so very well is how perfectly Toyota has pitched it: just pricey and nice enough so that people will pay the money, just cheap enough to avoid being a niche-market toy for the rich. When Bob Lutz was originally shooting his mouth off about the Volt’s price, it was being positioned similarly; it’s since crept up dangerously close to the niche toy level while the compromises have built up. That, combined with buyer fatigue and let-down, is going to make this car a hard sell.
I think that, if they had wanted to be smart, they ought to have kept their cards closer to their chest. The problem is that they just can’t seem to resist whipping up their fanbase and the less-critical-thinking members of the media.