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Reader Ricky Heang writes in:
Is the 15,000 maintenance really necessary? I have an 2008 FJ Cruiser and I am just hitting 15K. I had the car for about 6 months and the dealership charges $298 for the 15,000 maintenance. I have always thought that these were just traps for dealers to charge a ridiculous amount of money for oil changes and inspection. I checked what they provide and it looks like lots of visual inspections and just an oil/filter change and tire rotation. The car still feels new to me, and I don’t I need anything more than an oil change and tire rotation. What are your thoughts?
71 Comments on “Ask the Best and Brightest: 15k Mile Scheduled Maintenance?...”
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I’ve never done those checks at a dealer. Have my trusted local independent guy do any rotations, inspections or scheduled replacements (like timing belts) and usually stop at the quicky-lube place on the way home from work when it’s oil and filter change time. Like to keep my dollars working in the community with the small business man (or woman). The dealer only gets the warranty work (which I’ve had none for many years now). Your mileage may vary.
DIY. Have you got a pollen filter, fuel filter? Those would probably be due for a change. Check your suspension, wheel bearings, belts, hoses, brakes, all fluids.
Autobox service should be a ways off yet.
If you skip it, and somthing goes kablewie on your FJ down the road, your warranty may be void. And then you’ll argue and make a scene in the service bay, but the service advisor will have the itty-bitty fine print on his side. You’ll leave in a huff, pay retail for the repair at an independent, swear to hate the dealer and Toyota for ever and ever and ever. Every time you look at your car, you’ll just get angry all over again. Eventually, you visit your doctor and find the situation has cause hypertension, you go on expensive medication, and all for what? Two-hundred bucks?
On any car I have had under warranty, I have done scheduled service at a dealer at least as often as called for in the manual. This way, we avoid all arguments about maintenance for warranty coverage purposes. Once out of warranty, howeve, and it is off to my favorite independent mechanic who does what is necessary, not what is unnecessary.
I’ve NEVER done those pricey maintenance packages; never had a problem with service afterwards, and will never get them done. I used to work in service dept. for a dealer and its a cash cow. Dont bother (future warranty claims will be fine so long as you change the oil on time and can prove it).
Yeah, an oil change and tire rotation are what around $100.00? For the few extra dollars are you willing to risk loose bolts or unforeseen problems, not to mention that the tech works on the car everyday and knows exactly where to look. A $3.00 aftermarket oil filter from Jiffy Lube, give me a break, don’t be a putz.
Pull out your owner’s manual. No, not the one the dealer might have given you, the one Toyota did. Find the recommended maintenance schedule that applies to your car (location, duty cycle) and follow it. It was written by/for the people who built the car.
You can do it yourself, or go to an independent, but stick to the schedule.
If nothing else, following it will serve you well in the event of warranty issues.
Find a trusted independent mechanic to do what’s specified in the manual only.
In my opinion, the 15,000 mile is pointless. They tried to get me to pay for that (we’ll rotate the tires! really? it’s a staggered setup, you can’t). A lot of the inspection stuff they inspect anyhow with a normal lube job.
I could see the 30,000 service being necessary, maybe.
It depends on if the 15k maintenance is recommended by the dealer or by the actual car owner’s manual. Usually, a dealer’s 15k maintenance goes beyond what is normally required in the owner’s manual, which is why they cost that much more. This is also how the dealer can make their money. Read and follow your owner’s manual, and you’ll be fine. Don’t get sucked into the additional “maintenance items” recommended by the dealer.
The threat of voiding the warranty is an old, tired story to get you in their door. Just change the oil to a synthetic to go longer between changes, and rotate your tires every 6k. More then likely any issues that you have will be long after any warranty ends and not the result of lack of spending $298 with the dealer.
Now with an FJ, if it’s a 4×4 that you actually wheel, I would change the fluids in the diffs by 30k.
I DIY maintenance items with the exception of tire changes and alignments. My 2003 Civic now has 152k miles and still runs like new. Never been to the dealer for service.
Just do the items in the owner’s manual maintenance schedule (not the dealer’s “recommended” list).
As others have mentioned just do exactly what the owner’s manual indicates at 15,000 miles, not what the dealer suggests.
When I hit 15,000 miles on my car it called for oil/filter change and tire rotation along with various filter replacements. Changed the filters myself, had the rest done by my local mechanic.
The local mechanic charges about $25 less for the oil/filter change and rotation and I can walk there form my house.
Whatever you do, never take your car to a dealer and say, “Give me the 15,000 mile service.” You are basically inviting him to turn you upside down and shake you until all the money comes out. Your owner’s manual might not call for a cabin filter change until 30,000 miles (or whatever), but the dealer decides to change it at 15k as part of his “special premium red-carpet grand poobah reach around service” for exclusive customers such as yourself. Ask the dealer to give you a written copy of all the items he includes in the 15k service, and compare it to what is in your owner’s manual.
I wouldn’t waste the money on such a “dealer” service, they usually amount to inspecting certain items that can be done by yourself or a reputable local shop, maybe lubing the door hinges.
An oil change/tire rotation shouldn’t be anymore than $50…from a dealer. Of course, that can vary with the type of oil and size of sump you have. This isn’t a Mercedes that requires 10 qts of Mobil1.
Like previously stated, if you drive the vehicle hard then I’d change the trans and diff fluid at 25k or so.
Might have to change the cabin air filter, but those are usually rated at 2 year/24000 miles. Fuel filter shouldn’t need changing for quite some time.
The threat of voiding the warranty is an old, tired story to get you in their door. Just change the oil to a synthetic to go longer between changes
I partly disagree. A defective radio does not require proof of timely oil changes for warranty service, but a seized (or sludged) engine most likely will. And using synthetic oil won’t get you any special consideration from the manufacturer.
I would change all fluids and filters at the recommended intervals. I would then cherry-pick my way through the rest of the manufacturer’s (not dealer’s) maintenance list, depending on which model I own. You might find in a Toyota forum, for example, that the FJ’s rear calipers are susceptible to seizing if you drive in the salt belt and don’t lubricate them every year or two. Just an example.
Beyond that, I would agree to NOT give the dealer carte blanche when it comes to maintenance. It’s a car, not a helicopter.
(future warranty claims will be fine so long as you change the oil on time and can prove it).
Well – manual called for timing belt inspection at 60k. At 72k timing belt broke taking the engine with it. If I hadn’t had the inspection done – no free engine.
For the visual inspections, either do them yourself or have a mechanic do them. What I often do is ask the oil change place if I can look around under the car while it’s on the lift. Won’t cost much as long as you only have them inspect what the manual says to inspect.
psarhjinian :
You can do it yourself, or go to an independent, but stick to the schedule.
This. Don’t EVER let the dealer do “scheduled maintenance,” unless you are SURE that what they are doing is both necessary and competitively priced.
A reputable, honest, properly certified, independent shop is SOLID GOLD. Not only will they tell you what is and isn’t necessary (and what will and won’t void your precious warranty), but they will report all work performed to the manufacturer, and keep their own records. That way Toyota knows you’ve done the necessary work AND the shop will back you up (and you should be keeping records yourself :-) ).
I can’t stress to car owners enough the importance of finding a good mechanic. From identifying problems early, to doing only necessary work, to inspecting a used car you’re thinking of buying, a good mechanic will save the mechanically-disinclined thousands upon thousands of dollars. Treat them like royalty. Send your friends to them. They are gold.
We have an Acura. It’s a fine car, the dealer not so much.
Unauthorized services totaling $90 and wholly superfluous to Acura’s published maintenance requirements unexpectedly appeared on the 7,500-mile inspection invoice, roughly doubling the quoted price. The chemical services were neither requested nor discussed. The owner’s manual discourages additives.
1. Motor oil additive, $15
2. Transmission additive, $15
3. Gasoline additive, $15
4. Door and window gasket silicone spray, $15
5. Brake rotor polishing disk, $15. (Schedule calls for a brake inspection)
6. Seat belt retractor lubricant, $15. (Technical Service Bulletin)
I permit service agencies a modicum of billing latitude to avoid ugliness and court goodwill. This was clearly over the top, egregious, blatantly self-serving and a clear breach of Ontario law. It could not be overlooked.
The service manager sniffed, “I thought you would appreciate the extra good care we are giving your car.”
She reduced the invoice $50, significantly less than the overcharge.
The dealer is now permitted oil changes only, just enough so she isn’t pissed if we have a warranty claim. An independent service agency performs all other tasks according to the owner’s manual and with OEM parts.
I’ll be glad to do your 15,000 maintenance for just $198. You’ll save a hundred dollars! Just bring it over to my house. No, I’m not a trained mechanic but I won’t do any worse than the dealer.
It’s a scam. The only time it might be useful is if they do a hidden recall on your vehicle. They will never tell you about it and Toyota will pay for it. But you will think that nothing goes wrong with your car like those ‘Merican ones.
Ironically, when BMW started their “free” maintenance program a few years ago they mysteriously doubled the length of time between service intervals.
7500 mi oil changes became 15k miles.
Transmission and diff fluids became “lifetime fill!”
Just a bit of info on what manufacturers think is necessary when it’s THEIR dime!
This has turned into a tit-for-tat discussion. The REAL question is the warranty issue – will a service department really refuse warranty service if you can’t provide documentation re: scheduled inspection intervals? Any dealer or service department employees out there who could clear this up?
My guess is that no service department would refuse, because that would be throwing away free money from the manufacturer (who is the one who pays for warranted service). As an example, a Subaru service employee told me the one-free alignment included in the warranty gets the dealer something like $125 from the manufacturer, but to customers off the street the dealer will only charge $99. By “turning down” a warranty item request on an alignment, the dealer runs the risk of the customer walking out to an independent shop OR getting only $99 from the customer’s pocket when they could get $125 from Subaru of America.
I don’t think it’s necessary if the only physical thing being done is an oil and filter change. I’d say skip it, it will not void your warranty.
Ironically, when BMW started their “free” maintenance program a few years ago they mysteriously doubled the length of time between service intervals.
BMW’s maintenance program is a nightmare, and has pretty much assured that any off-lease BMW since it’s inception is going to be a much bigger-than-normal risk. I’d be interested to know the 5+ year durability rates on BMWs before and after this program started.
I’ve never been completely sure I trust automated “Maintenance Minder” systems like Honda’s, but I sure as hell don’t trust BMW’s “Free Scheduled Maintenance”.
no service department would refuse, because that would be throwing away free money from the manufacturer
But, they aren’t the final arbiter of warranty claims. If you bring your Camry in with a siezed engine at 58,000 miles what are they chances Toyota of America is going to ask to see some oil change documentation before buying you a new engine? I personally don’t know, nor do I know how the policies differ per manufacturer.
And besides, it’s an FJ. FJ is like a Jeep, only better. So, in my honest opinion, if someone bought FJ and do not enjoy changing its oil, what did they buy it for? The whole story just sounds odd to me. I would understand if we were discussing a Camry here.
RetardedSparks :
August 26th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Ironically, when BMW started their “free” maintenance program a few years ago they mysteriously doubled the length of time between service intervals.
7500 mi oil changes became 15k miles.
Transmission and diff fluids became “lifetime fill!”
Just a bit of info on what manufacturers think is necessary when it’s THEIR dime!
Don’t BMWs automatically tell the driver when they need maintenance based on wear and tear?
willamettejd :
August 26th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
This has turned into a tit-for-tat discussion. The REAL question is the warranty issue – will a service department really refuse warranty service if you can’t provide documentation re: scheduled inspection intervals? Any dealer or service department employees out there who could clear this up?
My guess is that no service department would refuse, because that would be throwing away free money from the manufacturer (who is the one who pays for warranted service).
Yeah, but the manufacturer can decide not to pay for the repair if the car hasn’t been properly maintained.
Furthermore, you better have proof of the maintenance. I had a client with a Hyundai Tiburon, and his engine self-destructed. He changed the oil himself. He had to lay out five grand for a new engine.
In this day and age, when car companies are losing money hand over fist and looking for ANY excuse to cut corners cost-wise, anyone who doesn’t maintain their car by the book is an absolute fool.
Gardiner Westbound
Oil additives are probably beyond the dealer’s technical ability to understand. Oil isn’t just clarified dino juice. It already contains a lot of additives. Do they know if the chemistry of what they added is complementary to the composition of the oil they used? Or does it make things, such as wear, worse? I doubt they know what the re-blend of additives (the oil’s own additives plus their moose pee) does. If you are or know a tribologist/lubrication chemist then you might figure it out yourself. Tell them never again.
I do all of my own maintenance work including on vehicles I’ve purchased brand new. I have never had any trouble getting legitimate warranty repairs done by the dealer. When they ask about routine service I tell them the truth: I’ve been doing all my own work since I was sixteen years old and I’m not about to stop. I keep detailed records and have yet to be asked to show the records.
Like others have said, do what is in the Toyota manual, not the dealer’s “suggested” nonsense.
Personally I do some things more often than by the book. Generally I change air filters at about 1/2 the book recommended time interval because we live in a dusty area. Likewise I change the coolant at about 1/2 the manufacturer’s suggested interval just because I want the cooling system to last as long as possible. Interestingly enough, I haven’t had a water pump fail in any of our vehicles for decades. I don’t ever do those “chemical services” dealerships love to tack on for pure profit.
I change automatic tranny fluids every 30k miles even though the books often say 60k miles or longer. On rear wheel drive vehicles I like to change out the diff. fluid at 10k miles are so; then every time I do the automatic transmission fluid thereafter. I flush the brake fluid once every 2-3 years. Some cars call for this brake fluid flush, some don’t but should.
But, I’m a little obsessive about maintenance and it doesn’t cost me much to do these things myself.
What psarhjinian said! Follow the manufacturer’s requirements from the owners book. Keep records and receipts. Everything needs maintenance once in a while, but nobody likes to pay for it. However the factory is better qualified to judge what is required than you are. No disrespect, but I have seen this first hand many times in the last 40 years working for different manufacturers, who have the ability to play hardball with warranty claims if they are trying to cut costs.
Shakedown alert!
What John Horner said: if you have records of required oil changes, etc., they can’t deny you warranty claims.
The only thing that brings me to a dealer is warranty work, or a recall. Otherwise, I keep a safe distance.
I have almost 20,000 on my MKS.
Never has the dealer requested such a service.
The one thing I do insist, however, is they use my Mobil 1 oil when they change the oil every 5 to 6K.
Other than that, no services.
If you have a Toyota FJ Cruiser I’d suggest not taking it to the Ford dealer shown in the picture for your 15k maintenance. :)
I do my own maintenance, even on new cars. I always own a factory shop manual (~ $100) for the vehicle. It’s helpful to peruse the owner’s manual, too, just to see what’s recommended.
The item I most often see cheated by the owner’s manual is a recommendation on changing ATF and the ATF filter. I believe in it, and many years of owning automatics has shown me that it’s worth doing every 25k or so. The argument that “it’s better to leave the sludge in there” is ridiculous.
Almost no vehicles receive brake fluid changes, but it’s a good practice.
I don’t go to dealers for anything but warranty repair (a moot point for most cars I’ve owned due to expiration of their warranties). I’ve never gotten a fair shake on routine maintenance at a dealer.
Dealerships have to prove that the lack of scheduled maintenance caused the problem not the fact that the maintenance wasn’t done. They can’t disallow warrantee work on a bad wheel bearing because you did not change the air filter. They must prove that the lack of a particular maintenance caused the problem to happen. Change filters and fluids at recommended times, times recommended in the owner’s manual not by the dealership. If you follow the owner’s manual scheduled maintenance you should have no problem. Dealerships make lots of money on scheduled maintenance and they will tell you all kinds of horror stories to keep you coming in. It is not necessary.
All these things are is an overpriced oil change tire rotation. A mechanic will look the car over anyway to see if there is anything else he can sell you. It might also include adding fuel injector cleaner to your tank. Also, no warranty claim will be declined on your car as long as you have proof of oil changes. You can even do your own. Just save the receipts of the maintenance items you buy. A guy at Jiffy Lube is no more qualified to change the oil than you are. There is no oil change certification for mechanics.
If you want to keep the warranty then do it. All in the warranty and service to keep are usually more than it’s worth. But since you’ve already paid for the warranty you might as well pay them to keep it?
The original post (and all follow up comments) further reinforce my belief why I will never buy a new car. I’ll take a three-year-old original owner, low mileage car will all service records for 1/2 MSRP (or less). Thank you very much.
Twotone
I NEVER pay a dealer for any type of service. Not one red cent. I do the maintenance myself per the manufacturer’s schedule, keeping a log book, receipts, and old parts removed. I’ve never had a dealer turn down a chance to do warantee work on my car and bill the manufacturer.
It’s simple. Check the manufacturer’s schedule in your owner’s manual.
Bring it to the dealer. Tell the commissioned salesperson (er, service writer) that you are requesting the nn,000 mile service escribed on page x in the owner’s manual. Then request that no additional work be done.
Read the job sheet before signing it. The text should be something like: “Customer requests 15,000 mile service be performed as described on page 72 in the owners manual. Customer requests that no additional services or work be performed.”
If it doesn’t say that, you have a commissioned salesperson who is trying to trick you. Stand your ground. Bring in the service manager.
The service writers will not like you, but they will respect you.
And besides, it’s an FJ. FJ is like a Jeep, only better.…
Really? Gotta love such blanket statements…
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=gj7&ei=E8aVSuLcAtSDlgeTh5n2Dg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=toyota+fj+frame+failures&spell=1
Nothing wrong witht eh 15k service, just have it done by a reputable mechanic, which is typically not the dealer (there are some exceptions I’m sure). A Lithia dealership wanted to take my mom to the cleaners on her Corolla a year or so ago to the tune of $400+. I found a local shop with a good rep, and they charged her $60 to change the oil and air filters and check everything. They even gave her a ride between the repair shop and her house, and as she reported to me, they were very friendly and explained what they had found during the inspection of belts, etc. (which was nothing needed replacement).
Other than inspections, the main thing that might genuinely need attention is the air filter. Especially in places that are dusty (or where there are fires, like Southern California last fall), the air filter can get pretty nasty after 15,000 miles.
What findude said is the best answer I have seen.
Check the manufacturer’s schedule in your owner’s manual.
Looking online it appears that the owners manual for the FJ does not have those schedules however reference is made to a separate maintenance manual that comes with the car.
If you do not have that then go to
http://smg.toyotapartsandservice.com/guides.php?xv=22&xy=2006&xint_id=3&v=30&y=2008&int_id=3
Which is the Toyota site which uses drop down menus to describe each model/year/interval service.
And yes they won’t like you but probably will give you some grudging respect.
The third time I requested just the listed services on a 2007 V6 accord the service writer recognized me and didn’t try the “premium service” routine.
Also change the cabin air filter yourself. The parts + labor on this from Honda was $87. Part online was $12 and labor was releasing glove box lid and swapping out filter. Instructions came with the filter.
Best of luck
The Toyota dealership that I bought my 2009 Corolla at offers free tires and batteries for life it you have all of the FACTORY REQUIRED service performed by them.
My Toyota Corolla came a required service book. Every required service in 5,000 mile intervals (mostly oil changes and a tire rotation) have their own page. On the page is an area reserved for a stamp for the dealer to stamp that the service had been done. When I requested that it be stamped for my first oil change/ Tire rotation, the service writer admitted that I was the first person in 10 years to request such a thing. He signed it by hand to humor me.
When it came time for the third oil change, and only an oil change and tire rotation is required at 15,000 miles according to the book, I brought it to the dealership. The service writer told me it was time for my “15,000 Service” to the tune of $300. I politely declined and told him that I just wanted a regular Oil Change and Tire Rotation. He sternly warned me that if I did not have all of my factory service performed by the dealership, I would not be eligible for the Free Tires and Batteries for Life! I then showed him the service book that had no mention of an elaborate 15,000 mile service required by “the factory”
He said, and I quote: “Sorry, I am not familiar with that particular model” What an amazing lie! A Toyota service writer not familiar with the service requirements of not only the best selling Toyota of all time, but the best selling car in the world. It was breathtaking.
I instantly thought of George Carlin at the time. Warning NSFW! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvhsJyecpLc
I can imagine all of the suckers way overpaying for unneeded service, for that free tires and batteries for life. One “servicing” covering the cost of a set of some cheap Toyota sedan tires.
I’ll take a three-year-old original owner, low mileage car will all service records for 1/2 MSRP (or less).
Twotone – MSRP? That has precious little to the price you pay for a car. I think it makes you feel you’re getting a better deal than you really are.
I recall causing a small scene quite by accident at a service desk. I was reading their “recommended maintenance” flyer for my brand of vehicle, and it said that part of their regular service package was to “decarbon the throttle body and coke”.
I laughed out loud – unfortunately I had a mouthful of coffee at that very moment.
The poor bastards at the desk were covered in coffee, and I was both coughing and laughing so hard I couldn’t speak.
I think it’s all bullshit. Gas it up, Change the oil, swap the tires, turn the radio up and go wide fucking open at all times.
The ex took her Camry to a local Toyota store for a 15k oil change and they ended up talking her into a 15k service for $400.
I, in turn, twisted off on the service manager and read him his right to breathe act while showing him the owner’s manual recommended service at 15k.
$300 was promptly refunded, along with an apology to my ex.
Like most of you have said, I recommend (and practice) avoiding the dealer entirely except for warranty work. Either do the routine maintenance yourself or pay a reputable independent shop to do it. Make sure you keep all receipts just in case. For DIY items, keep a log, plus save the receipts for the parts.
My former ’97 Camry was part of the “sludger” series. I never had a lick of sludge, but my valve stem seals started to fail at 57K miles (evidenced by a puff of blue smoke on cold startup), just before the 60K powertrain warranty was about to expire. I took my log of oil change records to the local dealer (not the dealer I originally used to buy the car), and they took care of the problem without a hassle. It would have cost $800-$1,000.
Oh yeah, this dealer has a “Tires for Life” program. Problem is you have to do all maintenance at the dealer AND follow the dealer’s recommendations for tire rotations, balancing, and alignment, which of course are way beyond what the manufacturer calls for. You end up paying for the “free” tires many times over.
There is a reason we call these places stealerships.
It is almost impossible to find a dealer these days which doesn’t pad the service intervals with all kinds of added work and magic chemicals. Lately I’ve been helping a family friend with the maintenance on her Honda Accord. Looking through her past service receipts left me shaking my head in consternation. Now I’ve been saving her hundreds of dollars and our family got a nice home made apple pie in thanks. Friends and families helping each other out, how thoroughly enjoyable and old fashioned. I guess I’m doing my part to shrink The Economy :).
Bottom line – Open manual and read scheduled maintenance. Follow it to a ‘T’. The end.
But if you want to spend money on things you don’t need, by all means follow some ‘other’ maintenance schedule. Of course this one was not written by the folks who BUILT/CREATED your car, and more than likely someone who is looking to make a buck. Of course their just looking out for you – (roll-eyes)
In general I think it’s always our responsibility to watch what is being recommended vs what is needed per manufacturer, etc. I was in the car business for many years in the sales end and regularly actually had to fight my service department to keep them straight with my customers.
Obviously it helped my sales and the dealership’s satisfaction ratings, but most salespeople are idiots with no vision beyond this week’s paycheck and probably don’t even know how the back rooms are paid.
The service writer is on commission and the mechanics are paid by book rate. If they can “finish” a 2 hr job in a 1/2 hour, they pocket the difference.
I wasn’t the most popular in the service bays, but I always had service personnel who would get my regular recommendations because they were intrinsically honest.
BTW – I happen to love the BMW free service…brakes? Check…washer fluid? of course. Air filter? You can smell it? Done. Will you need a free loaner (always a current year BMW)?
I don’t tend to keep my primary cars for much more than 4 years any way, so another brand would have a really tough time dragging me away from their cars.
“Open manual and read scheduled maintenance. Follow it to a ‘T’. The end.”
I wouldn’t go quite that far. There are certainly situations where simply following the owner’s manual doesn’t give the owner the maximum practicable service life out of the vehicle or the minimum life-cycle costs. For example, running a 1995 Volvo 10k miles between oil changes on the then rather pathetic “SH” API classification conventional oils often led to expensive problems thanks to sludge accumulation. The owner’s manual guidance in that case was a bit too optimistic.
Leaving brake fluid in place as a lifetime fill (as most US based companies suggest) often means that the lifetime of the master cylinder and calipers is degraded from what it otherwise could be.
I can’t believe how some people whine about spending $1-200 bucks on what is likely the second largest purchase you make next to your house. Do I really want a 17 year old kid putting a cheap oil filter on my FJ at Discount Lube? No, thanks. I’ll stick to OEM. Does your independent mechanic know what diff fluid your FJ takes? Not likely. It’s not standard gear lube. Whether it’s a Toyota, a Buick or a Ferrari, the dealer techs know what to look for- and all makes have problem areas. Yes, I work for a Toyota dealer and we find many a problem on vehicles in for such an inspection including transmission case leaks, water pump and rad leaks (found many times on a Sienna. Does your independent guy know there is extended warranty on these?) and yes, a faulty left front caliper on an FJ. As for maintenance items not specified as required by the manufacturer (brake fluid, power steering fluid change and injector cleaning), these services will help prevent costly repairs in the long run. I only recommend these to folks who want to keep their car for more than 5 years.
So, how do you go about proving that you did the oil change? I buy all my oil and filters in bulk. Those receipts are somehow supposed to prove that I did my oil changes… or did it correctly, for that matter? If they want to prove my oil change (or lack of) caused the failure, they can send the oil sample off to an independent lab and prove the oil failed. As said before, the dealership/car company must prove that your neglect caused the failure.
My experience has been to change your oil on time, generally maintain the car (keep it clean, watch your tire wear, listen for strange noises, and watch under the car for leaks), and cherry pick the items from the recommended service list to have your favorite local mechanic do (assuming you cannot do it yourself). For my MINI and GTI, I’ll put it up on stands at oil change time, inspect under the car, and look under the hood for any oil or coolant leaks. I have my mechanic do the coolant and brake fluid every so often (depending on recommendation by the manual). It is clear that I maintain both of my cars in that they run great and look/feel great.
It does help my case with the dealer that I’m an automotive quality engineer that specializes on engines and I have a fancy business card stating as much. :)
My new Saab will only see the inside of a dealership for the 36K miles that Saab picks up the servicing bill – and if they irritate me sufficiently, maybe not even then. After that, the servicing will be in my garage, with OEM parts. I always do more maintenance than called for anyway. For example, no reason not to flush the brakes annually while I am swapping summer to winter wheels. Takes all of 10 minutes extra, and the bleeders don’t get stuck. I flush coolant every other year. “Lifetime fill” my ass!
When I had my ’00 Saab 9-5 V6t wagon, the local dealership wanted to charge $1200 flat-rate for a 60K mile major service NOT including changing the timing belt and flushing brakes and transmission. And that was $1200 for only EXACTLY what Saab called for in the manual – no add-ons. I did it myself for <$200 in OEM parts ordered online and two hours of my time. $1000+ for two hours work – nice job if you can get it! They wanted $1400 to do the timing belt and tensioners, I paid ~$200 for the OEM parts online and less than two hours labor to my favorite indy Saab mechanic for the labor. Even if I had bought the parts from them, it would have been < 1/2 what the dealer wanted. Madness.
I can’t believe how some people whine about spending $1-200 bucks on what is likely the second largest purchase you make next to your house.
I can’t believe people would want to spend $400 at a dealership for a $60 job.
Do I really want a 17 year old kid putting a cheap oil filter on my FJ at Discount Lube? No, thanks.
No, that’s why I do it myself with synthetic oil and WIX filters. This is particularly important wiht my wife’s Cobra Mustang which has two drain plugs and a larger oil filter than the standard GT Mustang.
I’ll stick to OEM.
You’re joking right? OEM oil filter? That’s a good one.
Does your independent mechanic know what diff fluid your FJ takes? Not likely. It’s not standard gear lube. Whether it’s a Toyota, a Buick or a Ferrari, the dealer techs know what to look for- and all makes have problem areas.
That wasn’t my experience with a Saturn I owned. I couldn’t convince them of several problems. My Brother-in-law is an engineer with Delphi, and he learned about each of the problems from other engineers as they started to appear in his own Saturn a year or so later. It wasn’t easy, but after much haggling and letters he got the problems fixed. So, either the dealership mechanics were self-important know-it-all idiots or liars. I’ll take a trusted local mechanic.
Yes, I work for a Toyota dealer and we find many a problem on vehicles in for such an inspection including transmission case leaks, water pump and rad leaks (found many times on a Sienna. Does your independent guy know there is extended warranty on these?) and yes, a faulty left front caliper on an FJ.
I guarantee you that any of the independent mechanics that I know and trust, as well as myself, would find these problems while perorming the actual routine maintenance, not an inflated dealership maintenance schedule.
As for maintenance items not specified as required by the manufacturer (brake fluid, power steering fluid change and injector cleaning), these services will help prevent costly repairs in the long run.
Important things like a transmission flush, special injector cleaner, etc. also known as the dealer’s profit center.
I only recommend these to folks who want to keep their car for more than 5 years.
Or as they’re also known as “pigeons.”
When I was a teenager, I worked part time at a new car dealership in Flint MI. I worked in the body shop. A customer brought his nearly new car in for an oil change because he was going “Up North” for a three day weekend. It was late Friday afternoon and all the mechanics were busy.
The customer was complaining about waiting so the service manager put the car up on a lift and told the guy from the wash rack to change the oil. This guy didn’t know how to drain oil, but he did
manage to add 5 quarts of oil to the engine. The customer left and made it almost to Saginaw before the seals let loose and drenched the front of the car with oil. When I came into work on Tuesday, the car was sitting in the service dept.
waiting for an engine rebuild.
I wrench on my own cars, and in reality a modern Toyota needs nothing besides an oil change at 15k miles.
I also believe that anytime someone touches my car, they are likely to cause future headaches for me. Even the OEM dealer techs.
An example is the wife’s Lexus. We took it in for a diff leak, which required the techs to lower the front subframe. The leak was repaired but a few weeks later the car started making strange groaning/squeaking sounds. My warranty had expired by then, so I climbed under to see what the issue was. It turns out that when the Lex techs didn’t tighten everything back up when they were done with that diff leak. One of the subframe bolts was loose enough that I could hand-tighten it. And one of the swaybar links was completely loose.
Oh yeah, I forgot that they also didn’t tighten the drain screw on the diff – I found a small puddle of diff oil under the car when I drove it home from service!
Bottom line – the fewer hands poking around on your car, the better.
I take my Accord to the dealer for regular oil changes. Just the oil change, thank you. It is the same price as a quick lube joint, plus they give it a good wash afterwards. And while I’m waiting, I get to check out all the new cars that I can’t afford…
I wouldn’t go quite that far. There are certainly situations where simply following the owner’s manual doesn’t give the owner the maximum practicable service life out of the vehicle or the minimum life-cycle costs.
That’s a good point, but the problem is that it’s very hard to know what those “shadow” maintenance intervals are until there’s been enough failures to determine a pattern (engine sludging, for example).
I would compromise and follow the manufacturer;s severe-duty schedule for the vehicle and supplement with a change of the “lifetime” fluids at a reasonable interval. Do get advice, though, as there’s occasionally problems with changing out “lifetime” fluids (Dexcool & distilled water, ATF changes and remembering to get the filings that accumulate on the magnetic trap, yadda yadda) that could trap you if you’re not aware.
That way you’ve got your paperwork in order in case something does go wrong, but you’re also not spending more than is truly needed.
I just cant’ figure out why one should assume that an independent mechanic isn’t just as likely to try and screw you as a dealership. I’d have to think they are more likely to do it as, if they own the shop, every extra dollar is a dollar in their pocket.
The other issue is – how does one go about finding a qualified mechanic.
I just took my IS-F in for its 15K service and the service manager was more than happy to drop the extra inspections and A/C filter change (easy DIY). Took the cost down from almost $400 to $100 and he assured me there would be no warranty issues as long as I kept up with the “real” maintenance items (i.e. fluid changes, brake pads etc). You’d think Lexus would really be pushing the line-item padding but this particular dealer does not.
Also, I baby this car (no track) so I don’t expect any abnormal wear and tear.
I do all my own work, and if it’s something I don’t have the time or knowledge for I’ll take it to a trusted independent mechanic. As everyone knows, VW dealerships are notorious for sucking. I took my 2003 Jetta to the dealer once for an alignment. It didn’t work out too well. As a result I’ve never been back. As long as you follow the manufacturer’s intervals, you should be fine. Keep a detailed log of what you did. You might also want to do better than the manufacturer’s intervals.
For example, VW says automatic transmission fluid is lifetime fill. But that’s because they want to sell you a new transmission once the fluid is toast. Spending the $80 or whatever on fluid and a filter is much better than spending $4500 to replace a failed 01M automatic.
Package deals from a dealer are often very VERY bad, when direct specifying works well.
EG, for that same amount, I had my new-to-me S2000 serviced at the Honda dealer.
But I specified what I wanted (Oil change, full synthetic. Transmission lubrication change. Rear diff lubrication changed. Air filter), which is whats actually needed per the manual and/or good idea.
jmo :
August 27th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I just cant’ figure out why one should assume that an independent mechanic isn’t just as likely to try and screw you as a dealership. I’d have to think they are more likely to do it as, if they own the shop, every extra dollar is a dollar in their pocket.
The other issue is – how does one go about finding a qualified mechanic.
That’s why we all say a GOOD independent mechanic. I’ve met my share of bad oens as well. The best way to find a good independent is through word of mouth with more creedence given to recomendations from people who do a lot of their own wrenching and use a mechanic because they don’t have the time or tools for a particular job.
Here is the 30 minute $40 list on the FJ:
Replace engine oil and oil filter
Rotate tires
Re-torque propeller shaft bolt
***Inspect****
Ball joints and dust covers
Brake lines and hoses
Drive shaft boots (4WD)
Engine coolant
Exhaust pipes and mountings
Front differential oil (4WD)
Radiator core and condenser
Rear differential oil
Steering gear box
Brake linings/drums and brake pads/discs
“The car still feels new to me”
If this feeling would be relevant I would not have done any service on my last car (SAAB 9-3 1998, driven up to 120.000 m) or ny current car (SAAB 9-3 SE 2006 50.000m).
So that argument is cr*p.
And the reader can afford a very big Toyota and when it comes to do some maintenance, he starts panicking because he has to pay a little bit of money! If you can’t afford it sell the car now.
I feel bad for those who aren’t mechanically inclined or who simply don’t have the time/desire to learn about their vehicles and do their own work. I feel bad, because unless they know someone they can trust, they are usually at the mercy of the repair shops.
I’m one of those weirdos who can’t wait to dig into my vehicles and learn about them. Then, based on their use, I create a maintenance plan. Unless something changes (vehicle use), I stick to it. I do it for cost savings, I do it for the fun of it, and I do it so I’m sure it’s done correctly.
As I read through the responses of the first group of folks, those who have been brainwashed by the marketing leveled at them, to believe dealership service is the only way, I shake my head in disbelief. There truly is one born every minute.
And I have to agree with those others who would prefer not to have a bunch of strangers’ hands messing with their vehicles. Follow someone else’s shoddy work, and you’ll know what I mean. Drain plugs and oil filters that have been torqued to within a hair of failing, are too common. But I wish that was all of it.
I remember once taking my Cadillac to the dealer to have the interior door panel replaced, as it had been slowly working itself free. I’m fastidious about these things, wanting my cars to look brand new, even if I’ve put over 100K miles on them. The dealer’s service writer wanted me to do a top engine flush while I had the car there. It would only cost me $350 on top of the $400 door panel.
I flatly, but politely told him “no.” He pressed. I smiled and responded “no,” again. I should have left then. He pushed again and I let him have it. I explained in detail how his suggestion was bullshit designed to free me of my hard earned cash. Unfortunately, I did not leave.
The dealership fixed my door, I picked the car up the next day. I paid for a new door panel, and truth be told, it looked good enough. But I should have inspected it. What was sold as a new door panel ended up being my old door panel cleaned up with some new fasteners. Unfortunately, it was too late, I had already left the dealer and it was a few days later when I discovered this. Had I still been at the dealership, I would have asked for my old panel…
It appeared the dealer was going to get his cash, one way or another.
Then there were my parents, who had their beloved Dodge Omni religiously serviced by the dealer from whom they bought it, brand new, in 1988. In 1994, the car became my college beater. It was sky blue, with the sky blue cloth interior, and a 3-speed auto. I grew to love the car. The first time I changed the oil, shortly after taking possession, I was shocked by what I found. The oil pan bolt was nearly frozen, and the oil had long turned to tar. Forget sludge. I honestly don’t know how that little 2.2 kept chugging on. I can say what I want about crappy Chrysler engineering. But I guess they did a few things right.
At any rate, I had to pick up the phone and tell my folks how they had been screwed by the home town Dodge dealer, and buying another car from the crook probably wasn’t a good idea. To this day, they call me to run various dealer suggestions past my bullshit meter. And when I’m in town, they like me to drive their cars and give them the “once over” to see if anything needs attention.
And don’t get me started on the Firestone Master Cares that used to service my company cars. Holy cow. In one instance, they recommended $1200 of repairs. I reviewed the suggestions, nixed a few items, and then approved the rest. The following month, I went in for my monthly service, and once again, they suggested the same $1200 worth of repairs. I pulled the receipt from the month prior, with the same work, and they back-pedaled.
A decade later, I brought them a different car so I could use them for their “lifetime” alignment, and had a good laugh as they suggested the same list of garbage, at roughly the same cost. Once again, I had to describe in loving detail, how I had just recently done that same work, by myself. Oh the back-pedaling….
Bottom line: If you aren’t inclined to do the work yourself, find someone you can trust. And then…what’s that Ronny used to say? “Trust but verify…”