John writes:
Stop me and if you’ve already addressed this: but I can’t find it on TTAC. Could you describe to the pros of spending the extra coin for aftermarket coilovers rather than just buying stiffer springs?
Sajeev replies:
In theory, aftermarket coilover shocks provide a superior balance of suspension control and road grip for performance applications. They are a spring and shock designed to work together, compared to mixing and matching parts that can easily go awry. Plus, coilovers are physically compact, height adjustable (without destroying the load rating or ride quality) and work in race applications that demand specific adjustments depending on each corner’s weight.
TTAC’s entry into the 24 hrs of LeMons has a set of (old) coilovers installed, and one of these days we’ll spend the cash to have it corner-weighted. (But if master-judge Jonny Lieberman is listening, probably not.)
Now in the real world, this is a highly subjective proposition. And the quality of the dampers, spring rate and overall coilover designs are all over the map. Even the good designs can (will?) beat the living snot out of you when traversing a pothole soaked road.
So what’s the deal? Who knows, it depends on your needs and perceptions.
Read the model-specific forums for your car and look critically at their comments: cars aren’t necessarily faster with lowering springs, and sometimes you can screw up your suspension geometry with even a minor tweak. Be realistic about your driving habits: aside from the adjustable stance, coilovers are a waste of money for most street going tuners. Usually a damper or sway bar upgrade is a better alternative.
[Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com]
Agree with the sway bar.
I’d like to add… while the quality of stock shock absorbers is all over the place, the quality of lowering springs, both in terms of proper stance and ride height and proper stiffness, is an even bigger spread.
Most cars ride horribly on “lowering” springs, with the exception of some sports-cars or “sporting” model variants which have stiffer dampers, as standard. I actually prefer going with adjustable dampers, as these cost less than coil-overs (and you don’t need the range of height adjustments these give anywhere but the race track) and maintain some semblance of a good ride.
In fact, some cars do perfectly well with non-adjustable replacement dampers.
Some forums have info on the spring rates and ride harshness of various aftermarket springs for the specifc make and model the forum caters to. Good for you if you can find one for your car… sorry if you can’t.
Sway bars can on occasion completely ruin ride quality too. Definitely look for an enthusiast forum where people will have experience with various brands and likely have tried all of the usual suspects.
@Sajeev :
“And the quality of the dampeners,” and “Usually a dampener or sway bar upgrade”
I find that water is the best dampener, tho beer will do in a pinch.
I can’t say for cars, but for trucks I’d invest in coilover shocks if I was building an off-road buggy or a Jeep that I was going to mostly rock crawl with. But that would be apart of many other expenses along with upgraded axles, lockers, long-arm kits, etc. Oh, and probably no wife too!
I think coilovers are total overkill in a street application, unless of course you already own an aggresively set-up (factory spec) high end car where otherwise improvements aren’t likely. My preference, and that’s all I’d dare call it given the suspension debates out there, is for a slightly stiffer non-adjustable damper, combined with stock springs or at least spring rates.
Personally I like my car to hit a compression with minimal drama/pain, but then immediately damp it out. The stock springs aren’t going to help make expansion joints comfortable, but anything bigger than that remains civilized. Also, I like some lean going into turns, not a lot, but I think a bit helps me judge my lateral load without always bumping up against the oversteer/understeer limit. Although, that’s a lot of fun too; for a while I was running lowered springs on my car in comb. with my dampers and it was a beast, but not a fun ride 80% of the time.
It should also be a lot easier and cheaper to find a damper designed to run with the OEM springs, and customer feedback for the product will actually be relevant to your purchase, as they aren’t running a mystery spring setup in concert.
I can’t speak for all car models but for an E36 M3, I think coil-overs are a waste unless your car is mainly a track toy. I have a Dinan stg 2, which is koni SA + thicker sta bars & slightly lower, stiffer springs. This gives me plenty of grip but still allows the car to be driven. Most of the coil over set-ups are so stiff, the car can become quite darty. My setup is competetive on auto-x (as verified by instructors driving my car) compared to cars running coil overs. Also my setup is at the limit of what I would consider daily driveable, and I have a high tolerance for a stiff ride.
The main benefit of coil overs for a street application, imho, is that you can get that ultra low stance. If thats is what you are looking for they may be the right choice. Get ready for a horrible ride and having to pay to have the car corner balanced every time you need an alignment, though.
So when is TTAC doing a LeMons entry? I’ve always been interested in racing LeMons but have no one close to me interested in doing it.
I prefer coilover for quick adjustments – as Sajeev says you can more quickly adjust height to help corner balance the car (by adjusting height you can help the car turn left and right at the same capability (most cars cannot due to weight distribution and factory settings). However if you race in series where cars are required to keep their torsion bar suspensions – it makes it a real pain in the butt trying to index a torsion bar versus a coilover setup. Like my 944 Spec car.
You also have to take into account how progressive the coil spring is – most coil springs are set to be initially softer when it is first compressed then they will increase their tension (become stiffer) the more it is compressed – giving you a smooth ride for small bumps yet absorbing the large bumps without crashing into the bump stops. Most coilover springs are not progressive and provide the same tension across most of the the spring’s compression – giving you actually greater control but the ride is harsher for normal driving (small bumps can rattle out fillings in your teeth). Plus another beauty of a coilover setup is they often come with adjustable shocks that you can use to damper the spring. Some even come with inner springs to supplement the outer springs. Then you get into remote reservoir setups, blah, blah, blah.
I know that for a fun daily driver, you’re not supposed to get too much suspension.
A mild upgrade is almost always best.
The front lower control arms should never be pitched above the horizontal (ie: ends higher than inboard mounting pts) when the car is at rest, or you lose your geometry while trying to get the stance + lower cg. (this was for a VW, mind you, but the concept still holds, iirc)
Other recommendations I got were to: not lower the car much more than 1.4 inches, not increase swaybar diameter by more than ~15%, don’t go thinner than 50-series tires, don’t wheelspace out more than 8-10mm rear, 5-8mm front, and to use shock+strut+spring kits rather than mix/match.
That’s just a guideline. The total setup for what you want to do will probably vary wildly.
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+ I believe the classic Lotus setup is softer springs and stiffer swaybars.
Thanks for the input guys.
The car is a daily driver. My aim is to get it to roll less and turn in faster. A little lowering is okay, but I’m not looking to slam it.
I had been looking for thicker sway bars, but in my research there aren’t any manufacturers that make sway bars for the Sonata that aren’t more aggressive than stock. I did, however, find that K-Sport makes adjustable coilovers for the NF Sonata and asks $950~ for the set. Eibach and H&R only make springs for the model, however, they only ask $300-350 for them.
Having owned and modified over 20 cars, I can honestly say that Coilovers are hands down the best option.
You get ride height adjustability.
You get damper adjustability.
You get a spring matched to the damper.
You get a higher spring rate but often the ability to soften the ride for the street and stiffen it for the track.
They’re worth the money every time.
I went with what many people had recommended as a cheap performance upgrade for my car, that was Eibach springs with KYB adjustable shocks. I love em. They are tight and controlled, but not too crashy and rough. I’ve had them for 2 years now (over 20k miles including a cross country drive) and they still feel great. However, because the springs were a little shorter than stock I put in an adapter to make up for the change in front camber, without having to buy an expensive adjustable control arm setup. Something to consider if you’re dropping your suspension at all.
It depends on the quality of the coilover. I’ve ridden coil-over equipped cars that were better controlled than stock… but none are ever quite as comfortable. Most coilovers are sprung for track use, and unless you find a Sonata forum that tells you how good or how bad the ride is going to be (and even then, it’s a very subjective… errh… subject), you’re not going to know until you try them.
Ultra-Racing, based in Southeast Asia, makes tower strut-bars, chassis braces and anti-roll bars for a whole host of Korean vehicles that are not supported by the aftermarket. Sure, you’ll have to pay extra in shipping, but their products are of very good quality.
http://www.ultraracing.com.my/Catalog.asp?Brand=Hyundai&pageno=4
They apparently have two levels of anti-roll bar for the Sonata, but I don’t know if they match your model year.
I find that the best cars in terms of a balance of handling and ride comfort, tend to have a very rigid and well-braced (and, preferably… light) chassis matched with relatively soft springs and modest dampers. It also helps if they have lots of suspension travel… too low and too little suspension travel can be just as bad as too tall…
John, don’t know if you’re still reading this as it’s a few pages back, but @niky brings up a good point.
What you do with the dampers, springs & swaybars will also vary based on how much you brace the chassis with upper & lower Strut-Tie Bars & K-members/brackets or the like.
*****One of my cars benefitted IMMENSELY from a simple front lower tie-bar.
So @niky’s mentioning using Ties to stiffen the chassis is Very important, even though your question was about springs+dampers.
Old post, but a question: Did Post Office r/w/blue color scheme have a yellow trim stripe middle of rear quarter panel?
fincar1 on Sep 24 2009 suggested the USPS had Couriers in red/white/blue color scheme.
Seeing the film “Oh, God” (1977) makes me wonder if the color scheme started in 1958.
In this clip, observe what is gaining and passing John Denver in the left-hand lane: