Semantics! What do you call the Flex? Ford thinks the mini-van label is taboo. So is a FWD Flex more of a CUV than an AWD Sienna? What’s the Mazda CX 9? I happen to think the Journey is a replacement for the discontinued short-wheelbase Caravan. Does it really matter? Chrysler is still dominant, especially when the Journey is included. The Odyssey is the bestselling single nameplate, but obviously the Chrysler twins have it beat. But the Chrysler off-shoot VW Routan is croaking. And the Flex is not exactly flexing any serious sales muscle. And I included the Mazda CX 7 here to confuse you further because I forgot it with the CUVs. Rather than argue about it, let’s just come up with a new name for the whole category that included CUVs and MPVs. Chart follows:
| Rank by YTD | Nov 09 | % change | YTD 09 | % change |
| Honda Odyssey | 6406 | -5% | 91167 | -29% |
| Dodge Caravan | 8171 | 35% | 82103 | -30% |
| Chrysler T&C | 7214 | -3% | 76093 | -31% |
| Toyota Sienna | 7488 | 32% | 75509 | -30% |
| Dodge Journey | 5434 | 93% | 46954 | 10% |
| Ford Flex | 2025 | -8% | 34083 | 190% |
| Kia Sedona | 1895 | -15% | 26625 | 7% |
| Mazda CX 9 | 1940 | 13% | 18495 | -23% |
| Mazda 5 | 1095 | -27% | 16866 | -12% |
| VW Routan | 540 | -60% | 13848 | 457% |
| Nissan Quest | 227 | -34% | 8310 | -53% |
| Lincoln MKT | 648 | 1722 | ||
| Mazda CX 7 | 2209 | 103% | 18005 | 30% |
Semantics – In my book a real minivan has sliding rear doors and does not pretend to be an SUV/CUV/Whatever.
My wife and I recently purchased a new Odyssey and couldn’t be happier. I’m surprised the Chrysler vans are holding up so well given Chrysler’s fortunes. Last month the Town & Country outsold all of the other Chrysler division nameplates combined. This doesn’t say much for Chrysler’s other nameplates.
Just a few years ago the Nissan Quest was selling 35,000 – 40,000 units per year. Now it is making the Routan’s sales look good. The Kia Sedona is an also ran, even with its low price and long warranty. This is proof that minivan buyers don’t buy solely on price.
If Chrysler goes belly up and Ford or GM do not buy the Chrysler minivan franchise, It looks like Honda and Toyota will the big two in the U.S. minivan market.
Also, you omitted the Ford Transit Connect (I know, it’s not a passenger vehicle). It has only been on sale in the U.S. for a few months, but has sold 6,842 units as of November 30th.
This is not a suprise that Chrysler is reigning here, its their market.
The Journey is also quite competent… and cheap.
What is suprising is that the lame duck Routan is selling far better than the Quest.
Nissan is really on the ropes with two of its products. The Titan and the Quest are on life support. I would not be surprised if there isn’t a replacement for either in Nissan’s future.
It seems Hyundai group have hit a brick wall in one market. The Sedona had some mild success in years past, but its seems that is all over. Stale product? Bad marketing? Hyundai sold negative 3 Entourage’s in november…. how is that even possible? At least they pulled the plug on that pig already.
Hyundai sold negative 3 Entourage’s in november…. how is that even possible?
Yeah, that is pretty weird. Somehow units which were reported sold in an earlier month must have gotten unsold? C4C deals gone bad? Lemon law buybacks? Returns under the lost-your-job promotion? Very strange.
I’m surprised the Chrysler vans are holding up so well given Chrysler’s fortunes.
It’s cheap. If you want a nice minivan but can’t make the payments on a Sienna XLE or Oddy EX, it’s not a bad choice. Similarly, the Caravan SE is like a big box of brand flakes: it’s wholesome, good for you and incredibly cheap: I’ve seen them blown out for CA$16K (or what you’d pay for a three to four year old base Sienna with not-insignificant mileage), which even with the miserable engine and middle bench is an enticing prospect for a young family
The other reasons the Chryslers do well is that they’re really not that bad, at least not bad in the way that the Caliber is bad versus the Civic or the Sebring is bad versus the Camry. They’re competitive, have a lot of thoughtful design touches and enjoy a price advantage.
Even if you have no faith in Chrysler as a brand, these cars are universal, well-understood and easy to fix. In Canada, they’ve been perennial best sellers in the way that the F-150 is in the US.
I agree that most of this list includes crossovers that don’t belong here, and that sliding doors really do make a van a van. It’s really Sienna, Oddy, Caravan/T&C, Entourage, Sedona, Mazda5, Quest. Everything else here is either a crossover/SUV by virtue of their attempts to defy categorization.
Side note: did you know GM still sells the Uplander in Canada?
Side note: did you know GM still sells the Uplander in Canada?
For some reason, I find that hilarious, but also it vindicates everything folks have been saying on here about the Canadians buying differently than Americans.
TTAC’s review of the Uplander is a classic.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/chevrolet-uplander/
The Caravan SE has 175hp and weighs over 2 tons? I’m not one to insist on rocketship-like performance but I can’t imagine this vehicle is purchased by people who also test-drove anything else.
Kixstart- The 3.3L V6 has 205lbft torque so it doesn’t feel as weak as a 4 cylinder with the same HP rating would.
Plus a Grand Caravan SE has a MSRP of $23995 (before discounts)
Sienna is $25340, Odyssey $27515
Not that I’m in the market for a minivan, but I would never purchase a Japanese minivan. Where is there own version of stow-and-go? That is the best evolution of minivan design. I often rent minivans for my job, where I need to hold large quantities of equipment under a closed roof. It is so nice to just fold the seats down and load her up with the Chrysler vans. Removing two 40 lb seats and lugging them up flights of stairs to either my hotel room or my apartment? Thanks but no thanks.
I agree the Japanese vans ride better and are more comfortable, but being able to create the huge, flat enclosed cargo area is exceptional, and you just cannot do that very easily in a Japanese van. In fact it’s a pain in the but, and I do everything I can to avoide the Japanese vans in the rental lots. Blows my mind they cannot figure out how to engineer it. I relaize “stow-and-go” is patented, but you can’t call it something else?
When my wife and I were looking at the Odyssey the Honda salesman tried to explain why Chrysler’s Stow-and-Go seats were not as good as Honda’s old fashioned, removable second row seats. I give him credit for trying, but Stow-and-Go is a really nice feature that every minivan should have. Honda does have their Lazy Susan under-floor storage compartment which appears to be inspired by Chrysler’s Stow-and-Go under-floor compartments.
The removable second row seats in the Odyssey are not that heavy, but I wouldn’t want to carry them up stairs. Years ago my parents owned a 1987 Grand Caravan and its rear bench seat was monster to remove and replace. I can live without fold flat second row seats, but a fold flat rear seat is an absolute necessity.
It all depends you you use a van. As a two seater, the Chryco vans are just fine.
Our Sienna has 3 kid seats in its second row, the rear open for cargo. That’s also possible with the Odyssey; you can’t do that with a GC or T&C as they don’t come in 8 passenger versions thanks to Stow-N-Go.
If you’re buying for hauling people, though, the Japanese vans are it. I just bought an Odyssey after owning a Ford van for several years (which was not a bad experience, for what it’s worth). the extra eighth seat is great for our needs, and I wasn’t willing to sacrifice the engine, comfortable seats, build quality, and handling for an underpadded folding chair feature that would likely only get actual use maybe twice a year. It depends on your reasons for buying the van in the first place. If I were hauling boxes not people, I’d consider it (but seriously, the console of the T&C felt like it was going to come out of the floor instead of opening…I’ve seen better plastics in McDonald’s straws).
Where is there own version of stow-and-go?
The Mazda 5 is slightly smaller (seats “only” 6), but all the rear passenger seats fold perfectly flat leaving mucho cargo space.
Kind of surprising to me that the Japanese didn’t invent “stow and go” in the first place….if you’ve ever been in a house in Japan, you’d understand….they store many household items (futons, linens, comforters, etc.) UNDER their floors, in cubbies covered by tatami mats, since they do not have the square footage for Western-style closets.
let’s just come up with a new name for the whole category that included CUVs and MPVs
I vote for the name “Family Hauler” for tall wagons with 3rd row seating. The general catagory is car based, but offers 3 rows of seats and a higher seating position than a car. Now that children are banished from the front passenger seat, this type of vehicle is basically required if one has multiple children.
Is that a typo? It has to be. I find it extremely difficult to believe that the CX-9 and Mazda5 have the exact same monthly and yearly sales numbers, great as they are.
Mazda’s November sales press release has the 5 ahead by a few hundred:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mazda-reports-sales-increase-for-november-78252532.html
Yup. My ADD makes this kind of transcribing challenging, especially on a Sunday evening. We’re doing something about it. Fixed.
I’m surprised the Chrysler vans are holding up so well given Chrysler’s fortunes.
They’re all at Orlando. We just got back from WDW – I’ve never seen a Routan on the mean streets of Houston, but I saw at least 40-50 Routans around Disney over the course of 5 days.
I have to say the VW is pretty decent looking……
I believe all those Routans you saw in Orlando are rentals. We just rented one at Phila airport for a long weekend. It has moonroof, DVD, heated cloth seats, really drove well with great ride, brakes and features but the engine was very thrashy. I don’t think that I could live with that for long. I also noticed a substantial number of Camrys and Korean cars in rental fleets. This is going to bite them some day.
Apparently there is actually a 2010 Routan. I thought it would be dead and gone already.
These sales figures for the Chrysler products are surprising, given the hostility found here and elsewhere. I don’t think we’re working hard enough.
I think we can regroup, put in double shifts on the Jeep punchline assembly line, the Dodge bashing, “Sergio Marchionne is Satan” rumor mill and Chrysler death watch quality control.With any luck we can bury Chrysler before Valentine’s Day-St. Paddys at the latest.
We just have to want it more.
That way we can assure that the tax money really is pissed away.
Last year I saw the fleet numbers for the Cvan and T&C, they are huge.
They are still popular, and the only domestic van left, but not as popular as the raw numbers suggest.
Bunter
The Chrysler vans do get all the Buy American customers. The funny thing about this is that there really is no U.S. made minivan from a wholly U.S. owned company. Chrysler is partially owned by Fiat and the Chrysler vans are all made in Ontario, Canada. On the other hand, Toyota, Honda and Nissan are Japanese companies, but the Sienna is made in Indiana, the Odyssey is made in Alabama, and the Quest is made in Mississippi.
One reason my wife and I bought the Odyssey is because it is made in Lincoln, Alabama which is only a few hours north of where we live. The Odyssey is the top rated minivan which is the main reason for our choice, but it is also locally made and our purchase of this vehicle helps the regional economy.
The Kia’s are notoriously unreliable for a minivan. Worse than the Chryco pair. That’s why people have stopped buying them.
10 year warranty or not, when you’re hauling kids, shop time is a huge, actually massive inconvenience. That downtime doesn’t happen nearly as much with the pair from Honda/Toyota (not that they’re prefect). Same issue with the Nissan BTW.
Hmmm…IIRC CRs numbers show the Sedona is better than the Crycos. THis new generation has had a nasty launch. Not saying the Sedona is good.
For my next van I don’t see anything but the Oddy or Sienna even showing up on the radar.
Bunter
Bunter
According to Michael Karesh’s site, 2007 Sedona gets 107 repairs vs. 78 for 2008 T&C and 22 for the 2007 T&C.
I would take that more as proof that True Delta doesn’t have statistically valid data about the minivans. Unless the 2008 was three times worse than the 2007, it would seem that Karesh just isn’t getting good data about Chrysler minivans.
Which isn’t to say anything about the relative reliability of the Sedona vs. Chrysler. Just that True Delta isn’t always reliable.
Our neighbor had a Sedona…it came back from numerous minor collisions and just kept on keeping on until it was totaled against a median barrier. I see a lot of them around here, and I suspect that enough of them may have been sold to make Kia’s fleet average mpg less than Hyundai’s.
When I was buying minivans I didn’t seriously consider Caravan or T&C because in the 90’s the gas pedal was weirdly hinged in the middle and the seat was shaped like a catcher’s mitt, providing no lower back support.
Did Chrysler ever fix those ergonomic flaws? Seems like VW at least would know better. No matter, poor reliability and Chrysler’s doubtful viability are good enough arguments to stay away. The Journey is the right size, but reviewers have panned it. To paraphrase a famous baseball manager, can’t anyone here (the domestic side) play this game?
I rented a Caravan and spent all last week cruising rural highways and city streets in Oklahoma and Kansas. I could have cried when I had to give it back. If you need a better car than this, you have issues. I have been in the Hondas and Toyotas and they are perhaps a little nicer in some respects, but none that justify the premium price.
By the way, I got 22 MPG with four of us in the vehicle, and I made no attempt to go easy on the gas (after all, it was a rental).
Sure, I may not need a better functioning vehicle. But I would far rather my wife and kids were in a more reliable one.
If I bought a Caravan it is very likely I would have (reliability) issues.
Priorities vary.
Bunter
Bunter1, thanks for your response. Actually, I live in northern Minnesota and have had no reliability issues with the Caravans I have owned (one exception – crankshaft broke at 140K+). I park on the street all winter at temps as low as -40 and have called AAA for a start exactly once. I usually do not buy until the vehicle has around 100K due to cost. I put a lot of miles on my vehicles. Since access to parts for domestics is easier, the Dodge is actually easier to live with.
My wife and kids are my only priority when I buy a vehicle (or it wouldn’t be a minivan!). Total cost of ownership for the Caravan is vastly cheaper than with the Toyota or Honda, but I must agree that they make a wonderful vehicle too. If cost were not a factor, I would possibly buy one. Since it is, and I have had great experience with the Caravan, I’ll stick with it (I am on my 5th since ’86). Like ’em a lot.
Minnesota born myself, lived in Fargo 5 years.
I would urge caution on the latest Chryslers, their CR ratings have plunged vs. the previous models.
On cost, a Oddy or Sienna that is a little older and more miles seems a better bet on reliability for the same bucks. That’s the way I see it anyway.
Nice chattin’ with you.
Bunter
You too, friend. Thanks.
The Caravan SE has 175hp and weighs over 2 tons? I’m not one to insist on rocketship-like performance but I can’t imagine this vehicle is purchased by people who also test-drove anything else.
They did, but they have different priorities. Think about the bran flakes analogy: you could buy premium, organic granola and high-quality yoghourt for breakfast, or you could buy the economy-size box of bran flakes. The granola tastes better and is better for you, but costs five times as much.
Similarly, consider the Toyota Sienna and Dodge Caravan. Despite the excellence of it’s powertrain (you can get a Sienna into the low seven-second range, which is nuts), the base Sienna is CA$30K and dealers don’t budge much on that. The base Caravan ticks most of the same boxes and can be had for half the price of the base Sienna, if you’re good at bargaining. Think about that: put ten thousand dollars (or more, if it’s used) on the hood of the Dodge and line it up next to the Toyota. Imagine you’re a family with three kids and an upside-down mortgage. Which one do you want more?
So, apparently the gratuitous-eye-candy-sales-analysis-babe photos have gone on haitus? Do we owe this a.) to political correctness? b.) to complaints from the BnB re: near-NSFW level of photography? c.)reappraisal of subject matter seriousness?d.) advertiser reticence? e.) all of the above?
f.) the reluctance of milf’s to pose with minivans and compete with the C&D advertiser’s floormat milf?
What’s to argue about. This is silly.
A Flex is designed to do more than a mini van.
As is a Traverse.
The Flex is rated to tow a minimum 4500 lbs , and with the ecoboost more.
The Traverse is rated even higher!
There is no minivan any thinking person would use consistantly to tow.
Not one.
Instead of using sales data, why didn’t you show power and tow stats?
The Flex is more wagon than minivan.
A Flex is designed to do more than a mini van.
What, you mean like give people in the rear seat leg cramps and force them to buy rooftop boxes?
Most minivans tow 3500lbs, and crossovers like the Flex or Traverse are really nothing more than front-drive minivans with a butch nose, smaller cargo space and normal doors. Even if they’re rated higher, you’d be risking a nasty repair bill (especially if you don’t pop for a tranny cooler) to consistently tow that much on a vehicle equipped with a front-drive transaxle and a unibody chassis.
Instead of using sales data, why didn’t you show power and tow stats?
Most people who buy minivans and crossovers don’t tow anything more than their passengers and luggage, and a minivan—any minivan—will do that better than even the best crossover. If you tow anything respectable with any regularity, buy an Explorer, 4Runner or (if you really need it) an Expedition, Sequioa or Yukaburbahoe.
Amen.
Bunter