Paul writes:
I’m about to shell out $3500K for a Honda Odyssey transmission. A very unexpected turn of events for me, given the Big H’s reputation for quality…or so I thought. Googling shows that transmission problems are endemic. They are across all brands, all styles, all price points, all years. I was pretty surprised.
Your readers have a pretty high collective wisdom and -usually- leave insightful commentary. I wonder what they would say if asked, ”What make and model car has the most trouble-free transmission? The worst transmission?” I’d use the feedback to guide my next car purchase.
Sajeev Answers:
Ah yes, the recent phenomena of bigger bodies, more horsepower and not enough transaxle to keep it on the road. Be it a minivan, crossover or big displacement V6 family sedan, this is a problem for car-based brands with once-flawless reputations. I’m looking at you, Honda and Toyota. But buying a car on autobox alone isn’t the smartest idea: any vehicle with a proven gearbox is probably a less-than-desirable choice. Because the safe bets are famous fleet vehicles: Impalas, Panther Chassis Fords, or full size SUVs. How does that grab ya? Yeah, I didn’t think so.
An automatic transmission/transaxle is a combination of fluid, moving metal bits, friction-y clutch materials and geeky electronics moving in harmony. Or not: even serious gear heads have a tough time understanding the game, comparing a transmission rebuild to a black art. The wiser move is to shop properly, and stick to a service plan. Buy the vehicle you need, install the biggest transmission cooler possible and change the fluid every 30k to 50k miles. If you tow or overload a vehicle in hot climates, annual fluid servicing is mandatory. No exceptions there, especially if you stick with car based platforms that have no business with 240+ horses and 3500+ lb curb weights.
My choice? Replace the minivan with a 1-3 year old Chevy Tahoe or Ford Expedition. Or a Ford Panther Chassis, but that Appreciation Week is over. Fuel mileage be damned, these rigs don’t eat gearboxes and clearly have the laws of Physics on their side when someone decides to run a red light and to crash into your family. Sturdy and safe may seem like the cop out when you consider fuel prices, but how much do you really save on an Odyssey when it commands a hefty price premium when new, eats $3500 transaxles when old and forces you to into a rental car for days, if not weeks?
Steve Answers:
The most trouble free transmission would likely be a 1980’s through early 1990’s Toyota pickup. But somehow I don’t see you attaching three or four child seats to the bed of a truck.
I would ignore the transmission issue entirely. Shopping for any car based on a transmission is like picking a lifelong partner based on the size of their bank account. Yes you will have one less worry. But woe be the poor soul that looks at any important decision through only one dimension.
Let’s just say that ALL manufacturers have issues with automatic transmissions. I won’t give you a history lesson. Life is too short. Instead I’m going to give you a path that won’t require a five figured liposuction procedure for your wallet.
Keep the Odyssey for a while. Put in the Honda tranny. Have them throw in a good transmission cooler so that it doesn’t get stressed (negotiate on the price and ‘responsibility’ for the repair). Change the tranny fluid annually. Replace the radiator every five years. That’s it.
I have a friend of mine who has a very large mini-warehouse business near Athens, Georiga. He uses Chrysler minivans (1991 – 1995 models) that supposedly have among the highest level of transmission issues ever recorded for a modern vehicle. But his don’t break. Why? Because with fresh transmission fluid the temperature is kept low. The use of a tranny cooler and new-ish radiator eliminate all other heat concerns.
Other than shifting from reverse to drive without coming to a complete stop, heat in all it’s forms is the only thing that can kill a modern transmission. Minivans are the most frequent destroyers of automatic transmissions. They carry a lot of weight constantly and don’t benefit from the bulky rear-wheel drive powertrains you can get from certain body-on-frame vehicle such as SUV’s, pickup’s, and old full-sized Fords. But on the road they are the most comfortable and spacious vehicles you can find at a bargain price.
I would definitely consider making the Odyssey a long-term keeper.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.
I remember reading years ago in R&T that an A/T is at least as complicated a piece as the engine. That’s probably still true, even w/modern emissions controls, FI, etc.
What year Odyssey is it?
Any manual tranny :D
I like to say that manny trannies always require a clutch eventually (plus sometimes other related bits), but that’s predictable and plannable…unlike most auto tranny failures, which are usually catastrophic and expensive.
Mazda5’s offer manual transmissions.
I have a question for everybody who says manny tranny or bust. This is a serious question and I don’t want it to be thought of as anything else. So here goes. I’ve been trying to learn how to drive a manual for a while, as I don’t own one I am at the mercy of my friends, and have more or less gotten the hang of flat ground starts, stops and panic situations, but I have problems with my hill starts. My downshifts are still a little clumsy, but both my friends say that is something that will go away with time.
Is there any really good way to get the hang of hill starts such that rolling into the vehicles behind isn’t as big a risk? I tried learning first on my friend’s 98 Mustang GT (it felt like a heavy car with a fairly heavy – to me at least – clutch) and I rolled back about a carlength. This was at night with nobody behind me so no harm was done. I recently had better luck in another friend’s 97 Ranger 4-cyl. The hill starts are what keep me from buying a 5 speed (or 6 speed as many manuals now are). Any tips from the Best & Brightest? I know this isn’t exactly the right place for lessons in driving, but I’ve gotten good tips before.
I want my next car to be a 5 speed, but the hill starts are giving me pause.
@tankinbeans: You could engage the parking brake while on an incline, and then quickly release it as you start to take off.
With that said, you should get the feel for your clutch’s engagement point fairly quickly and not have ti use the handbrake at all.
tankinbears,
There are probably better forums for DIY/learning than a specific thread here, but I’ve only driven manuals for 17 years (when I bought my first car, I couldn’t even drive it yet!) and have never rolled back into anyone.
Even a major roll is maybe a foot, and if someone is a foot off your bumper on a hill, then you could probably make the case that THEY were behaving dangerously.
Anyway, to answer your hill start question: Use the handbrake!
1. Hold thumb on handbrake
2. Release footbrake
3. Put car in gear
4. Slowly engage clutch
5. Release handbrake in tune with clutch engagement
Do it right and you’ll have less rollback than an auto tranny :D
@ tankinbeans
Practice reaching your friction point on flat ground. Usually the clutch pedal travel consists of “Dead travel” and “Live travel” the part where your clutch foot actually affects the friction between the trans/engine. The “dead” to “live” ratio is different from car to car, and the dead is usually on both sides of the live.
Dip the clutch, let it out slowly till you get to the beginning of your “live” space…the car should vibrate. Learn to do that quickly. Once you can do that, just need to master giving some extra gas while pulling through the “live space”…tada…no roll back hill starts!
I taught this method to a student recently, she was doing decent hill starts within an evening of practice.
@tankinbeans
Rather than using the handbrake, I use the friction point of the clutch. While still on the brake, slowly ease the clutch out till you feel the friction point. From there you just operate it like normal (for the most part, it takes some feel to execute the maneuver well). Eventually you’ll get good enough the rollback is very minimal if not non-existant.
@tankinbeans
If traffic behind you is backed up and you are feeling nervous, just give it sufficient revs and dump the clutch. Rev so the engine doesn’t stall. Don’t change your mind last minute and decide to brake. You’ll look silly and wheelspin, but you won’t hit the guy behind you if the clutch is working right. Don’t make a habit of it, but sometimes you just have to get out of there. I drilled that into my friend when he was learning hill starts in my Corolla.
Otherwise, keep practicing! Find the steepest hill around with no traffic. Be smooth. Take your time. Find your friction zone.
Don’t try and learn on a vehicle like the Mustang GT or the Corvette. They have heavy clutch action and can be difficult to drive smoothly. Stick to the Ranger or another four banger.
@tankinbeans How old are you? If you’re over 35, you can forget about trying to learn how to drive a manual. Learning to drive a manual is something you should do when you’re a kid. I tried to teach a number of over 30’s the art of manual trans, with limited success — OK, they were all women but still. It’s kind of like watching a 40 year old orthodontist walk into a Harley dealer to buy his very first motorcycle. I just shake my head, and think, “This is going to be splattery.”
And sometimes a really determined old dog can be taught new tricks. I learned to drive stick at age 32 being taught by a 26 year old woman. It can be done.
Hello everybody. I am 22 and still very much young and able to learn. I’ve always felt stupid that I didn’t know how to drive a 5 speed, but now I’m trying to learn without owning one. Thank you all for endulging me and giving tips that make more sense than my both my brothers’, “Oh you’ll get used to it.”
How much should the installation of a transmission cooler cost?
I’d guess about $150-200.
Others may want to point out exceptions, but my general sense is that most Toyota automatics, including the FWD versions, seem to have a substantially better than average rep. Honda’s with V6 are definitely weak.
Toyotas fared better, until 2006. I’ve seen a rash of transmission issues with the current-gen V6 Camry, Lexus ES and RX. Even Autoblog caught wind of it:
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/
That was the transmission flare issue, which was more or less caught and fixed. That was the five-speed auto and the 3.3L V6, I think.
Of course Autoblog caught wind of it. Autoblog can’t resist the page hits a good Toyota story creates. They got hooked during the Tundra’s release (nothing got domestic fans frothing like the Tundra) and can’t give it up.
@psar: I thought it was the 3.5L V6
Sajeev – there is a massive difference between a transmission issue that rears its head in the first 500 miles, like the shift flare that you are referencing, and a chronic design issue that leads to early failure, like the Odyssey. Based on the autoblog link, it sounds like there was a manufacturing issue with the first 6ATs in the current generation Camry. I wouldn’t discount a transmission’s long term durability because of some early assembly issues*, particularly since that transmission design now has 4+ years of data history saying that it is a reliable transmission.
Everything I’ve read about the Honda issue is that the transmission wasn’t designed to handle the loading of the new powertrain and new chassis when it was carried over to the next model. That isn’t the case with the Toyota 6AT as this was an all new design for the higher power 2GR V6 that replaced the old 3MZ engine. Completely different issues.
My parents’ 97 GMC Yukon ate 3 transmissions by the time it was sold in 2002 for an Explorer. Being truck based doesn’t necessarily mean that the transmission has been spec’d to handle the loads it could see.
*That were recalled by the manufacturer within a year of the car’s release.
Yup, you’re right: 3.5L. I had my own (Sienna, 3.3L) on the brain.
Transmission flare is only one problem with the Toyota 6-speed: after my review of the ES350, an owner (who Lemon law’d his ride) pointed me to other problems with this unit via ClubLexus.com…from multiple complaints from people across the country.
That was in 2006. But now two people I know have problems with the transmissions in their Lexus RXs, one of them is a 2008 model.
The 2008 RX350 isn’t even a 6AT. It is the 5AT. The 6AT didn’t come until the 2009 or 2010 model year.
Hit up truedelta and you’ll see the 2006 and 2008 RX350 at 25 and 30 dealer trips/year/100veh. Now look at the Tahoe you recommended. 2007 is 120 and 2008 is 119. If transmissions were such an issues on these Toyotas, you’d have more complaints, especially from a picky Lexus customer versus a Chevy customer. Take a look at the complaints on the Tahoe/Sub/Av. There are quite a few transmission complaints including a few 30k mile failures. I think you’re just going with a gut feeling and not letting the data drive your recommendation. At work tomorrow, I’ll pull out my JD power dependability study and check out the transmission section for 2008 models and see what their data says. Working in automotive manufacturing does have its advantages.
@Quentin you are right, I am going on gut feelings. Rarely do I look at the hard data because I have zero no access to it. I will email Karesh see if he wants to expand on what you brought up with an editorial of his own. It would be very beneficial to me, that’s for sure.
Sajeev – A quick look at the data shows that the Tahoe is worse than the RX. Interestingly enough, the bigger the vehicle (Suburban, Yukon XL, Expedition EL), the more complaints. Who knows how this extrapolates to long term durability, but few have the luxury of being able to see 6 years of data on a given transmission before making their purchase decision.
Very, very interesting. I’ve emailed Karesh and might try to make an editorial about this.
In the book Car, about the development of the second gen Taurus, the author mentions that Ford’s leading transmission engineer had a sign in his office that basically said no one really understands how auto trannies work. Wish I could remember the exact wording, it’s pretty funny. Both my cars have clutches.
By and large, I agree with Sajiv & Steve. Fluid changes and coolers all the way. That said, some are worse than others. The 2nd generation Odyssey is one of the worse ones. The 1st gen (95-98) 4 cyl Ody had a tranny that was pretty much life-of-the-car (that is, over 200K) with even minimal care. But starting in 99, these were a big problem. The Odyssey forums even note problems into the 3d generation, up to 2005, 6 or 7. Honda has replaced a lot of these, and if you bought your car new, Honda will probably help you. But I understand that this is a design issue, and at some point, these are going to start disappearing from the road in greater than average numbers (particularly for Hondas).
Ford Windstars are a problem. Not just for transmissions. Avoid.
Chrysler minivans, certainly from the late 90s on up are about as robust as any, with care. My mechanic reports on one that he services that is at about 300K on the original unit. I have one with nearly 200K that i believe to be original (though I bought the car used). Mine drives and shifts perfectly. These DEMAND quality fluid, and require ATF+4. Never put Dextron or Mercon into a Chrysler minivan transmission. This was the cause of a lot of the early failures.
Actually, not just Odyssey, but all Hondacura V6’s with auto were troubled. Fixed by 2003 (Pilot and new TSX were introduced that year, both a trouble-free).
I’ll agree with Sajeev on this one. Buy what you want and take care of it. Unless you want to buy the 1968 Impala station wagon I saw on Auto Trader Classics last week. Plenty of room for the family SBC and a good solid beefy automatic transmission. But please don’t, it’s kind of on my wish list. ;)
The most durable transmissions are always going to be found in the heaviest vehicles, that is, trucks and frame based SUVs, because they are designed to withstand a large amount of torque from the V8 that they are usually mated to, and several thousand pounds of additional weight from towing/hauling. Or just buy a manual.
I never had any problems with the 6 speed ZF unit in my last car. Perhaps do research on a particular model and find out who makes the transmission and what it’s track record is.
Except, of course, when the manufacturer simply specs an inferior transmission, as has been the case with HD trucks from each of the Big Three at least once during the past 15 years or so.
My vote would be “anything based on the 700R4.” It has made guest-appearances in practically everything, and like the Chevy 350, there are probably more of them in this world than anything else. They’re dirt cheap. Just swapped one into a friend’s ancient and much-abused Suburban for a mere $400 (and would have only been $475 if they had done the swap).
M1 – The TH700R-4 – as originally designed – was a royal POS, right down there with all the other crappy Metric and Overdrive trannies GM was regurgitating from about 1977-1986.
However, GM made dramatic improvements to both the 200-4R and the 700R-4 over the years. From ’87 on, they became as bulletproof as you remember. I had a few 700R-4 vehicles and own one now in my ’91 Caprice.
The 700R-4 was renamed the 4L-60 in the early 90’s and the computer-controlled versions are the 4L60-E. Again, bulletproof.
But the pre-87 units were just crap. Fortunately, any tranny shop worth their salt will know the parts to upgrade one to post-87 standards.
I had to rebuild automatic transmissions on both a 2002 Mazda Millenia and a 2004 Mercury Mountaineer last year. I went to a franchise shop (Cottman Transmissions) for both. Because I did that, I kept the costs down…about $2k/each (Mountaineer is a 5 speed auto and was more expensive). The Mazda always had a rough 1-2 shift, even after the rebuild. I wasn’t quite happy with the performance of it, but the shop felt it was normal (of course). I put about 15k on the car after the new tranny was put in, no problems on the tranny itself despite the weird shift, and I recently sold the car.
The Mercury had the rebuild at 65k miles, it now has 80k on it and shifts smoothly. Earlier this year I did have the O/D Off light flash, took it back to Cottman, bad solenoid which they replaced under warranty. Warranty is up now…only 12k on a rebuild. Of course, it remains to be seen how the long-term performance and reliability hold up.
With all the new DSG, CVT, 5/6/7/8 speed Automatics with unproven durability, geared to optimize fuel economy despite having heavy cars to pull (mostly FWD), you can bet your ass that transmissions will continue to be the weak point in modern cars, durability-wise.
We replaced the Mazda with a Malibu with a 6-speed automatic engineered by Daewoo. Good thing there’s a good powertrain warranty…because although I love the car all around I don’t have much faith in the long term durability of anything touched by Daewoo, not the least a high-tech automatic transmission.
The Honda transmission in 1999-2003 or so V6 vehicles is probably the least reliable in recent years. Back in the 1990s it would have been Ford’s four-speed automatic used in the Taurus and others or Chrysler’s “Ultradrive.”
The Aisin transmission used by Toyota and many others doesn’t tend to fail outright. Instead, it sometimes permitted engine rpm to “flare” during shifts.
GM’s new six-speed garners many complaints about how it behaves, but it also rarely fails outright.
There’s some buzz about the CVT used in the Nissan Murano being prone to failure, but we’re not hearing of many failures yet.
Overall, none of the current crop of transmissions appears to have a high failure rate–but stay tuned.
Latest results of TrueDelta’s Car Reliability Survey always here:
http://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability.php
I think that the prevalence of 6+ automatics is going to cause perception problems. I’ve found just about all of them tend to hunt a lot and reach for the higher gears much, much too often. Four-speeds seem to be better this way; personally, I’m finding I prefer 4ATs.
The Murano CVT problem was 2003 only, which was it’s first application in any vehicle and the first year of the Murano’s life, so you could chalk that up to teething problems. Otherwise Nissan’s CVTs have been pretty reliable. The only really horrible CVTs were the ones GM foisted on Vue and Ion owners and the ones in some Civic and first-gen Insight hybrids.
Honda’s 99-03 5AT/V6 combo was a bad one, and yes, the UltraDrive and Ford AXODs were too. Another bad one is Volvo’s recent “sealed” unit (I know a few V70 people who got hit with that one), some of Mercedes’ 5AT AMG offerings from the early 00’s. Honda had a problem with some manual Civic Si’s, I think., so a pithy “manuals aren’t affected” isn’t true.
Other than those, though, what it really comes down to, though, is use and abuse. Even if we’re talking heavy trucks, you really need to be mindful of the state of the fluid and the need for adequate cooling, as Sajeev notes. Do that and anything you buy will probably be fine.
Automatic transmissions are evil incarnate when they go wrong and I can’t wait for CVTs to make them go away.
People here seem to think that manual transmissions never fail.
Not so. There are so few manual trans cars out there that the failures don’t get noticed. But Ford does a steady business selling replacement ZF transmissions for full size trucks. They only sell complete units. There are no parts available to repair these units, so a trans replacement is about $3500.
I have experienced manual trans failures, though years ago, that required a new case, new shafts and new synchros. That was nearly the cost of a Torqueflite rebuild.
There is no substitute for good maintenance and carefulk attention to symptoms.
My brother is a classic ignorer of symptoms. He once called me from the side fo the freeway, 2000 miles away,, ’cause his Ford AOD-E trans failed. He said it had been refusing to go into reverse and shifted into 4th kind of funny, but he set off on a 4000 mile trip anyway.
Bob
Maybe due to fewer installations, people don’t think they fail. It’s not true, though. Last year I lined up my 15 year old Sunfire with some jerk kid in a fart can Honda just for giggles, with my new tires I hooked up and left him a the light. The next morning, I start off on my way to work, and as I get into second gear, grind! Third and fourth weren’t any better. I apparently killed the synchros with the new tires and the speed shifting I had been doing, and it didn’t manifest itself until the next morning.
What really sucked was trying to find another used 5 speed Isuzu trans that wasn’t crap. Due to the fact that there were many fewer manual J bodies vs. automatics, I ended buying a trans from an owner forum. There’s nothing like putting a $1000 bucks into your traffic beater…
If you’re shopping for a used car that uses a drivetrain for which several years’ worth of reliability data is available, that’s one thing. The ’99-01 Honda 4-speed autos, and ’02-04 5-speed autos, had known issues which you can read all about over at http://www.odyclub.com/forums . When I bought my ’01 Odyssey two years ago, I went into it eyes-open about the tranny issue, and specifically shopped for one with a fresh tranny – found it, 107K on the clock when I bought it, with less than 1K miles on the THIRD tranny! At 133K now and keeping my fingers crossed.
As far as a larger tranny cooler goes, it certainly can’t hurt, but won’t necessarily help things either depending upon what the root cause failure mechanism is. In the Honda boxes, there are under-designed clutch packs which develop too much heat locally, and you can throw all of the extra coolers on you want but it won’t magically upsize the clutch to the size it needs to be. In the early 5-speeds (’02-’03?), Honda actually retrofitted a fluid squirter jet to spray additional fluid on the underdesigned (gets really hot) part inside (a band-aid fix if I’ve ever seen one, yeah Honda!).
As far as a new vehicle goes, who knows? If the drivetrain is a carryover from an existing model you can likely get some reliability data on it, but if a new design, the jury will be out for a few years . . .
The best advice I have is to talk to the actual dealership mechanics (NOT the front-desk people or service writers) and see what they have to say. They are the first ones who will notice if, say, for example, late-model Toyota and Lexus SUVs are grenading transaxle components at 25-30K miles (not that this has, or ever would, actually happen ;<).
I hate this about present and future cars. I have always had BMW’s (and others) with manuals and they have been nails….but are increasingly rare to find if not available. Auto’s really keep most cars longevity suspect past 100k regardless of brand. I figure no manufacture really has to care much if their trannies are any good past 100k as all warranties will be long expired.
Back in the ’90’s I spoke to a crusty old transmission rebuilder who told me that in the 50-60-70’s that he mostly rebuilt transmissions that failed due to abuse. His take was that with the great financial pressures the auto companies were under to take out cost, they took it out of the running gear, primarily transmissions. Judging by the past 20 years or so, I would say the old coot was right. I don’t believe transmissions are nearly as durable as they once were.
I think like anything else on a car, maintenance is the key.
Or the rest of the car got more reliable faster than the transmission, which allowed the car to get the point the transmission failed.
You’re going to be hard pressed to convince me that any part from the 50s was superior to the equivalent part on a 2010 Chrysler Sebring, much less a decent car. Could be, I guess, but it’s going to take more than anecdotal evidence.
Is there any data on the reliability of double clutch transmissions as yet???
VW has had some glitches with theirs, but it was mostly stuff relating to sensors in the “mechatronics” which is stuff that regular auto trannies have, too. I don’t think they have been any worse than an average problem area.
Try Toyota/Ford hybrids. Even when badly maintained the actual hardware (gears and stuff) should last the life of the car. Unless you drive 50k miles a year, that is, in which case you should definetely change fluids by schedule. There are no wear or adjustment items in those – just plain old bearings, gears and chains. Think of it as of a manual transmission without the clutch.
Speaking of the clutch, that seems to be the worst enemy of manual transmissions. Apparently you can drive an 8-liter stroker V8 through a 3-speed old-school Saginaw for years, or you can ruin a much beefier modern 6-speed using a stock Camaro engine without much trouble. With manual transmissions, it’s all about shock loads.
So, moral of the story, get a [planetary gearbox] hybrid. Not for fuel efficiency, but for rock-solid reliability and reduced maintenance. And forget Honda.
Manual trannies certainly DO fail, and just like automatics it is certain cars that are know for it. Saab 900 anyone? With a turbo 900 you are doing well to have the clutch outlast the transmission on any early one. But the automatics were worse, so it is all relative.
I still feel the same way about automatics that I do about AWD – you pay more upfront, you pay more at the pump, and you pay more to fix the thing WHEN it breaks. If a car doesn’t offer a manual, then most likely it is not the car for me. Though i did just buy a totally sweet ’79 MB 300TD with 120K on it mit automatic. But with only ~80hp going through it I don’t expect any issues for a long, long, time.
I don’t see how this could be a “surprise,” for anyone that actually does some research before buying a vehicle, instead of returning to a showroom like a spawning salmon (or avoiding one like it had the plague) because brand X must make good vehicles while brand Y doesn’t.
The transmission failures in the Odyssey (and same model year Acuras) are very well documented.
If someone asked me today what minivan would I recommend my answer would be none of them. The used GM minivans are gutless excuses of vehicles, although the tranny and 3.5L under the hood is reliable. Dodge/Chrysler/and by proxy VW transmissions don’t have a reputation for being long lasting – nor does Honda. Toyota has an issue with bad welds and doors falling off on certain model years Sienna vans; the current Sienna is the best of the lot but is incredibly over priced.
When you look at minivan MPG compared to CUV of similar sizes, the advantage is long gone. The suggestion from TTAC that a Ford Econoline passenger van (no, not the 15 passenger version) is a reasonable alternative actually isn’t terribly off the mark.
Whatever you do, don’t get a full-sized SUV. Unless you tow on a regular basis, you’ll hate the fuel economy, the handling, the ride, the swing-out doors, the long hood, and the stupid step-in height.
Get a new transmission for the Oddy, slap a good cooler on it and change the fluid regularly.
Good advice. A friend’s 03 Suburban ate its transmission and transfer case early in life, gets 11 mpg, and uses brakes like they’re made of paper. What a great car.
Well I have had several Saabs 900 Auto with no problems with the tranny, the 2001/2002 Volvo xc wagons have been know to fail at a high rate. ( say 20% or so) The replacement cost is about 7K with labor, ( I have the reciets) and for that you get a rebuilt from Volvo.
SAABs had most troubles with 9000 2.3Turbo/Auto combo, that ZF unit was not fit for that much torque. That said, a manual could easily succumb to gear-crunching death as well. Another contributing factor was a weird lubricant requirement for the 9K manual. Not all folks knew they had to use engine, rather than gear, oil.
As for 900s/9-3OG (1995-2003), I struggle to recall any particular transmission troubles…
Honda Quality ?? All of my family (parents, siblings, not me) have owned every generation Honda Accord since they were Americanized (1984) through 2007.
Every single one of those Honda’s had the transmission die except the 2007 (so far). All of them under 100.000 miles except one (which was around 120,000 when it blew up). The earliest to die was around 54,000 miles.
The amazing part, is they all still swear by Honda cars. That’s loyalty (or crazy).
That makes me the black sheep since I have never owned a Honda.
I have owned both Toyota and German cars continuously. Never once repaired or replaced a Toyota auto tranny or even a clutch in more than 200,000 miles on each.
The German cars, just new clutches on manual cars if I owned it forever.
My one American car (with automatic) I owned for 130,000 and had no issues with it either.
Wow, you’re going to pay $3.5 million ($3500K) for a new transmission? That’s a bit excessive, and I can’t believe no one else made this smartass remark before me.
But seriously I’m a little surprised that to see everyone say change fluid regularly. I thought the conventional wisdom was not to do that? My wife’s Explorer was recently at the Ford shop and they tried to sell us a transmission fluid flush but I demurred. I called a couple of other shops and they told me if the fluid is that old (125K miles) and hasn’t been serviced, and the truck is shifting OK (it is), then leave it alone!! Is this still the consensus?
Don’t flush elderly (miles-wise &/or age-wise) transmissions. It’s begging for trouble. Some guys say drive them till they fall apart if you buy an old vehicle and transmission maintenance is unknown. I say simple drain and fill with the spec-ed fluid. But the way everybody is going toward flushes, you might have to find an old timer or do the whole damn thing yourself.
In fact I’d rather do all transmissions fluid changes as drain and fill. I know you don’t get all the fluid but I don’t trust the local grease monkeys hooking my vehicle up to a machine that puts unnecessary stress on the trans.
This is an old wives tale. You can flush any trans whenever you like. We have done thousands of flushes at our shops, (1968 to present) and ZERO of them came back with issues. That’s right, NONE.
Its easy to believe old timers, but in the face of the exact opposite, it just isn’t true.
Now, if the trans is screwy before a flush, it’ll still be screwy afterward. That can’t be escaped.
But if ANY mechanic EVER turns down services when money is offered, it is because he does not want to do it. There is no other reason.
I had the owner of a tranny shop that serviced 1000s of gov’t cars for Cuyahoga County and Cleveland for decades tell me either do it every year or leave it alone.
Something about the glaze that can build up inside the tranny over the years breaking loose during a change and clogging it.
Tommy.
Lexus RX 300 1999-2001 transmissions are known to be a problem, a lot of the AWD versions have failed at fairly low miles.
We drain and fill every year with Toyota Type IV transmission fluid.
tankinbeans, get a stick shift vehicle with a real “handbrake” not an emergency or parking brake. Most of the “emergency brake” type like that Ranger are severely lacking. Get one with either the handle between the front seats or the umbrella handle coming out of the lower dash type.
On the subject of hillstarts, another way of saying what thesal and dumanchu said:
For hillstarts, try practicing this somewhere flat. Let out the clutch slowly until it just starts to grab. Notice the pedal travel to do this and the change in engine note and vibration. Next, practice this on an uphill so you can start to feel the grab but still have your other foot on the brake. You’ll learn how to modulate the clutch and throttle relative to when you release the brake.
The mistake people make is releasing the brake while the clutch is still fully disengaged with the clutch pedal all the way down.
As for transmission longevity, I don’t think anyone mentioned taking great pains to ensure no one puts the wrong fluid in it. Find out what’s best for it, and ask to see proof of whatever anyone puts in it. As the owner of a car with a Chrysler A604, I was amazed at who put the wrong stuff in it. (It’s not helped by the owner’s manual and dipstick specifying the wrong fluid, of course. How much money and reputation would Chrysler have saved by proactively recalling manuals and dipsticks instead of replacing transmissions?)
There is dispute about regular fluid changes for automatics. My impression is that if the transmission is new, just rebuilt, or has always had regular changes, give it regular changes. And if it has gone for a very long time without a fluid change, then don’t change it unless the change is part of fixing something wrong with it.
Fluid coupling automatics have been around in cars since what? 1938 or so. So why are they not totally bulletproof by now? Assuming that they are not abused of course.
From the comments above it sounds as if the transmission fluid dies from overheating or contamination. So are there not super fluids that will last, say , 500,000 miles in normal use. If it is contamination then why is there not as standard, an external oil filter as the engine has. Why isn’t the transmission fluid easily changeable like engine oil and done as part of regular servicing And so on. Doesn’t seem like a severe engineering problem to me.
They’re not bulletproof because the demands of marketing, CAFE, etc have demanded more and more complex transmissions. The first torque-converter automatics had two speeds. Then three. Then four. Then lock-up torque converters. Then front wheel drive with the differential built into the same housing as the transmission. Then five speeds. Then torque converters that have variable lock-up (basically, controlled slippage – which means there is a slipping clutch happening all the time). Then six, seven, and eight speeds. Every extra function adds more and more complexity inside the transmission. More stuff to go wrong.
The other thing is the demands of consumers. Automatic transmissions have clutches inside them … they may be automatically operated, but they’re still there. The only clutch that lasts forever is the clutch that doesn’t slip. The only torque-converter automatic that is not going to overheat, is the one that locks up the torque converter the moment you pull away from a stop. And that means, the transmission that lasts the longest isn’t the one with smooth and undetectable gear changes (this is achieved by intentionally slipping the clutches inside the transmission and leaves the torque converter unlocked for intentional slippage – and heat). The transmission that lasts the longest is the one that goes WHACK into torque converter lockup and SLAM into the next gear, and BANG into the next lower gear on downshfits. But … people don’t like that, so they’re designed to slip, which means they’re designed to eventually fail!
Heavy-duty automatic transmissions in commercial vehicles DO have external filters and ARE designed for regular servicing. But nowadays, people don’t want to do maintenance. They want to drive the car while doing as little scheduled maintenance as possible for some reasonable lifetime and throw it away. Result … “lifetime fluid”, “sealed for life”. Ya right.
Not telling you the answers you want. Just telling you like it is.
Yes, manual transmissions can fail – but it’s almost always related to mis-use. With a manual gearbox, I am in control of how the clutch engages and how the gears are changed. With an automatic, it is out of the control of the driver. If it’s designed or programmed to eventually fail (due to heat buildup or clutch slippage) … it’s out of the driver’s control.
I’ll keep that manual control, thank you very much. Never had to change a clutch in any family vehicle I’ve owned. Only ever owned one autotragic and I don’t want another one.
Brian P: +1
I’ve been chanting the same mantra for years – these mushy shifts that people seem to like are the absolute death knell for autoboxes. Give me firm, hard shifts – u-joints are quite a bit cheaper than transmission repairs, last time I checked.
I couldn’t agree more with Brian P!!!
As far as Panthers are concerned, the Ford AOD-E and early 4R70 have their fair share of quirks and problems, such as weak overdrive bands, converter shudder and solenoid chatter, horrible shift quality and weak direct clutches. If a good cooler, fluid, and valve work are done, they can be reliable, and last about 200-300k miles, but stock ones will fail rather quickly if abused or not maintained. Their ok trannys, but not as nice as GM’s fullsize offerings from the same era.
As far as really great trannys, the Aisin-Warner built Toyota A-series are pretty much bulletproof, in rwd and transaxle versions. They will tolerate enormous abuse and neglect and still function properly. IMO, older (pre 95′) Mercedes and rwd Volvo trannys have proven rock solid, and GM’s Turbo-Hydramatic family, from the 60’s all the way up to today has proved quite stout as far as USDM transmissions go.
The Aisin Warner AW4 used in the Jeep Cherokees from 1987-2001 was absolutely unbreakable and did a great job of putting power to the ground without sapping up too much of it in the process. I wish they would have used this transmission in the 4.0L Wranglers as well – it may have actually made me consider an automatic.
By 1998 or so, the 4R70W was a fine transmission. I am not sure if there’s a single transmission from the modern (electronic automatic overdrive) era that wasn’t a POS in some aspect until they worked the bugs out of it.
If someone knows a good unit from the get-go, post it. I’d like to know.
Sajeev is right: old man had a ’98 P74 that ran very, very well up to about 230K, when my brother’s stupid unfortunate liaison with a ditch ended that idea. Besides oil changes at 5K and having the front end gone through at about 125K, the old man never did a thing to that Vic. Transmission never complained, even with (the old man’s(!!)) numerous neutral drops.
We only had two problems with the car not in the normal maintenance schedule, although one was wear and tear. Had to replace the idler at about 140K, and for some reason I never worked out, the collision/inertia switch once tripped while I was running about 115MPH. After I worked out what the problem was, we were back on our way.
Needless to say, I was disappointed when pops replaced his cow-hided Vic with a wimpy 3L Ranger. Oh, well.
I had a different experience, box GM trannys needed changed and Ford box trannys didn’t. Although they like to thunk.
Tommy
I agree about what’s been said about maintenance. Heat and dirty fluid are the main causes of premature trans death. If your ride doesn’t already have a trans cooler, have one installed. Change the fluid regularly. I had an early 90’s Mazda 626 with the G4A-EL trans that was known for grenading before 100K miles. I did yearly trans filter/fluid changes and took it up to 154K before it blew — almost double the average.
My only Honda experience was an 05 Odyssey that ended up in lemon law court. But my problem was the electric sliding doors (another perennial bugaboo for Honda), not the transmission.
However, I owned the car for 28k miles, and changed the transmission fluid at 25k miles just as I do with all my ATs. To my surprise, the Honda has no transmission filter. I’ve never found an explanation for why, so my theory is that the newer electronic transmissions don’t have as much fluid logic in them that can bind up from dirt. The logic is now electronic, the gears are shifted by solenoids, and the torque converter and bands are not as sensitive to contamination as the old fluid logic is. Any comments on my theory?
I’ve also recently found that my 09 Sedona has no AT filter. Is this the current trend?
Or, are the filter-less transmissions just a cynical ploy by mfrs to make more money on repairs?
As for Chrysler, I’ve run a 96 Grand Voyager to 120k miles without AT trouble, and a 98 Caravan to 145k miles (both 4-spds), but it needed a new torque converter during my ownership which started at 99k miles. The other day, I encountered someone whose 05 Caravan completely trashed its transmission at 36k miles – totally inexcusable for a car already out of warranty.
The three speed transmissions that Chrysler used in their FWD cars were awesome. I junked the car with over a quarter of a million miles on it and the trans was original with just one fluid change…a real spiritual successor (no pun intended) to the A727…
If there’s no filter, that means that flushing the system is a great idea. No filter to ever get clogged!
Wait, this can’t be a good thing…
Sajeev: Replace the minivan with a 1-3 year old Chevy Tahoe or Ford Expedition… Fuel mileage be damned, these rigs don’t eat gearboxes and clearly have the laws of Physics on their side when someone decides to run a red light and to crash into your family.
I’ve been helping a friend shop for a family vehicle so I’ve recently been looking at the IIHS’s list of driver death rates for model years 2001-2004.The numbers below are driver deaths (normalized for gender and age) per million registered car miles:
Toyota 4Runner: 13 (only the Astro and 7-series did better)
Honda Odyssey: 17
Chevy Tahoe (4WD): 51
Chevy Tahoe (2WD): 60
Ford Excursion (4WD): 115
The big SUVs do well in multiple vehicle accidents (14 for the 4WD Tahoe, more for the others), but they more than make up for it in single vehicle accidents, especially rollovers.The laws of physics are complicated.
IIHS driver death rates are far more useful as a measure of driver demographics than they are of vehicle safety.
They’re normalized based on death rates of women aged 25-64. It’s not perfect but that’s about as good as they can do, and does remove some of the demographic effect.
If you drive your vehicle like a school bus driver, an large SUV is probably the safest choice. In all other cases, less so. The more highway driving you do, the better off you are in a car.
The laws of physics are really pretty simple insofar as we’re concerned with them here.
While Patrickj might be wrong about the demographics, I think he’s right about driver talent and skill. I’ll take the Tahoe, or (75MPH rear-collision tested) Crown Vic over some can-van any day and rely on my driving to keep me on all four. Did you see the Bumblebee Camaro v. Cophoe accident yesterday? Could hardly tell there was damage to the bigger Chevy. I suspect the cop was TAR (treated and released) because, perhaps, he wasn’t wearing his belt.
Physics means that not only are truck-based vehicles prone to roll-over, but their roof structure is often not up to the task of supporting the mass.
What’s the longevity and replacement cost for truck brake and suspension components?
Also, the truck might not fit in the garage, and who has the reach to scrape frost/ice off the windshield? I suppose you could remote start and wait for the heat to melt it … another reason to hope fuel stays ~$3/gal.
One thing not mentioned is driving style. Those that treat the throttle as an on/off switch are sure to experience early transmission failure no matter what they drive.
I had a friend who always complained that the brakes in any car she owned were never any good since they wore out so fast. One ride with her and you knew why: throttle to the floor, then mash the brake, repeat ad infinitum.
Hondamatic (AutoManualTrans) transmissions were bulletproof.
Are we talking circa 1972 2-speed Honda Civic?
The one in my Honda Motorcycle was. It ran on motor oil AND it had a transmission cooler in front.
My wife and I became empty-nesters this year. We raised two boys driving Blazers, Caprices, Subarus, 2 Astro Vans…but NO CAR-BASED MINI VANS.
HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now it’s time to build my ’57 Chevy Handyman….
Can the Powerglide be adapted to this application?
You mean “power slide” as my father says? (Though is first car was a 1962 Bel Air bubble top with a 283 and a Powerglide, so he may be a bit biased in his opinion.)
I have posted this before but my family operates a car rental franchise and back in 2008 we took delivery of 40 Nissan Sentra 2.0’s with the CVT. It was by far the worst car we ever had, the CVT being one of the biggest issues.
I would have to go back through our records to get a exact number but at LEAST 50% of the CVT’s clunked out and were replaced under warranty. What a PITA! Upset customers, horrible dealerships, downtime, etc.
That car really left a bad taste in our mouth over Nissan in general. However, we didn’t have any transmission issues with a small batch of 2007 Altima 2.5 CVT’s or 2007-2008 Versa 1.8 4-spd’s as far as I can remember.
Engine/drivetrain wise most cars are typically fine no matter their origin in their time with us (we will run up to 45-60k miles or so, some have gone up to 70k).
Transmission woes plagued all three domestic names for years and contributed to their downfall in recent times. Now it seems the blessed foreign names have similar issues. Maybe it’s just the nature of the beast.
I’ll take a car with 10 year, 100K transmission warranties and replace the fluid every few years to be sure.
Transmission coolers are a great idea. My Hyundai came with an auxiliary trans cooler standard. The spin off filter makes it easy to change as well. I would bet the other Big H has fewer issues than most although no one is perfect.
Considering how long automatics have been produced it’s an area manufacturers could make improvements. But as long as consumers get stuck with the bill there isn’t much motivation. The domestics extended their warranties to respond to these problems, now it’s the Japanese’s turn.
We’re 112,xxx miles into a 2002 Odyssey we bought new. Knowing I was buying a heavy vehicle with an automatic transmission, I had the dealer add the transmission cooler before I took delivery (it’s normally part of the tow package which we did not get). We had the recall service done when we got the notice. I have the dealer do owner’s-manual defined service every 5,000 miles (as opposed to the dealer’s “recommended” service). Apart from consumables, I’ve replaced one wheel bearing, one motor mount, and a tie rod. That’s all. Apart from a dead battery (6 years old) in the winter it has never failed. We drive it like, well, a minivan. We have fun coupes and sedans with manual transmissions for our other driving.
I’m a regular at OdyClub and have followed the transmission problems for years. Some of our experience is no doubt luck, but I take credit for maintenance and the foresight to add the transmission cooler. If you are buying a vehicle that weighs more than about 3,500 pounds and has an automatic transmission, install additional oil cooling from the beginning!
Keep the Odyssey and just bite the bullet on the transmission. Honda will give you a 3 year/36 month warranty on the replacement. Reassess when you have six months left.
TANKINBEANS, I have the perfect solution for you. Having lived in the United Kingdom for 9 years, I can advise you how it’s done there, and it is a good method.
Find a car (or truck) with a handbrake between the seats and manual shift, suiting your needs, and buy it at your leisure.
The method is this: Every time you stop the vehicle wheels for more than 1 second, you reach down and pull the handbrake up sufficiently to stop the car from rolling at all. When it is time to pull away, you manipulate the gear shift lever, move your feet to the gas and clutch pedals, manipulate those as needed, put your left hand on the steering wheel as normal and put your right hand on the handbrake – release the handbrake catch with your thumb and ease the lever down as you pull forward.
With a small amount of practice, you will not roll backwards more than an inch or two, even on a severe upward incline.
This is not a new problem. Studebaker engineers invented the “hill holder” system 75 or so years ago. The even incorporated it into their Studebaker Automatic Drive (automatic transmission) announced in 1950 and built through 1955. (Lucky for them, acronyms were not as common then as now).
The ONLY automobile company that I know of which uses any similar system to the automatic “hill holder” is SUBARU. In fact, my AUTOMATIC 2010 Legacy CVT car has a hill holder button which works very well. You must select it on or off. Interestingly enough, this car has NOT got a handbrake; it has an electric parking brake which doubles as the hill holder. I’m pretty certain the manual shift Legacy (and therefore Outback) has this, also.
So if by chance you cannot “pick up” the method of driving as the British do (and also most Europeans), then you could always consider a stick-shift Subaru with Hill Holder….
The ONLY automobile company that I know of which uses any similar system to the automatic “hill holder” is SUBARU.
I know that the manual-equipped Dodge Challenger has a hill hold feature. Which is nice because the “handbrake” is foot operated in that car.
There are quite a few companies aside from Subaru that provide hill holding for their cars. The Volkswagen Passat offers it. Volvos and BMWs should have it too.
BMWs also have Hill Start Assist on manual transmission cars. Another interesting technology is Self Drying brakes.
I agree with Steve Lang wholeheartedly. To avoid an Odyssey simply because of its transmission issues versus other competing models is foolish. I bought new an ’03 Odyssey that has lived a hard life with 3 growing boys. It has never let me down and is going strong with 75K miles. It is a quality vehicle and still drives new. I’m keeping my fingers crossed with respect to the tranny, but I regularly maintain it with fluid changes. I recently rented a new Dodge Caravan that drove well but was incredibly cheap in terms of interior and exterior hardware, seat and cushion quality, etc. More important, the interior room was vastly inferior to my Odyssey (can’t speak for the ’11 Odyssey). Lastly, while I know this site is largely down on Consumer Report’s ratings, they rate the mid to late 2nd generation Odyssey as, overall, above average in reliability. So far, they won’t get an argument from me.