TTAC Commentator cc-rider writes:
Sajeev- I have written you before asking for advice for my coworker. You all had a field day with that one! I am looking for some quick advice as I now have a dilemma of my own to deal with.
I currently own two cars: a near mint 1991 Nissan Sentra SE-R and a nice 1988 BMW 325is. A situation has come up where I am thinking of trading the Sentra for a 1997 Mercedes C36 AMG. Before you spill the coffee on the keyboard, the C36 is not worth nearly as much as you would initially think. It is pretty much at the bottom of its depreciation curve.
The Benz owner also has a euro E34 M5. He is looking for a thrifty, front wheel drive daily driver. So, more or less we are talking about two odd ball cars with somewhat limited audiences. We haven’t talked numbers yet, but I know he thinks his car is worth more than the SE-R. From my research in the last week, I believe his car to be worth about $5500 or so. I believe my Sentra is worth about $4500 as it sits. Yes, it is that Sentra is that clean and has been upgraded in an OEM sense.
Am I completely nuts for possibly wanting to get into one of these cars? The car looks to be in great shape and is a rocket ship. I have read the 1997 5 speed auto trannys are not that reliable. I am not particularly wealthy and would hate to get into a money pit despite the off the charts cool factor of the Benz. I could keep the e30 for a daily driver and use the C36 on weekends. I am not sure the C36 would be the kind of car that I would want to rack up a lot of miles on.
The Benz’s current owner is a Subaru technician. He had the car towed the Greenwich CT Benz dealer today to diagnose a no start issue. I am curious to hear what the problem was. These cars are known to have wiring harness issues. I think they sorted that out by 1997 with the biodegradable harnesses.
I live in Fairfield County, CT so there are plenty of people to work on the Benz around here. There is someone I trust locally who is about 5 minutes from my work actually. And regarding my budget for repairs, but I am trying to stay under the threshold where my wife doesn’t want to kill me…
Sajeev Answers:
I’m not spilling my coffee on the initial purchase price, I’m worried about the ongoing maintenance issues. Wait, no. I’m laughing about it, actually. And your wife is probably thinking along the lines of the Benz’s current owner: why doesn’t my crazy husband buy one “thrifty front driver” and stick with it?
Plus, you don’t sound like an AMG connoisseur: one who’d actually tolerate (appreciate?) the trials and tribulations of owning an old German Hot Rod. This person would have an E55 in the garage and have Black Series dreams every night. You are not that person.
What is the matter with you? Not only can you not afford to keep this car around, you own an genuine Sentra SE-R…the car you need in the first place! Think about it this way. The C36 is only moderately better than a 2011 Hyundai Sonata Turbo: performance numbers are sickeningly close. Sure, the Benz is RWD and has all that pre-DiamlerChrysler design charm, but you can have more fun for less money with some other modern classic. Walk, don’t run away from this toy, and stick with what you got for a long, long time.
Steve Answers:
There is this thing in life we call ‘a brick wall’. Some of us recognize them for what they are. A car that’s worth more dead than alive. A house or spouse that is a money pit. Any bad investment of money or time can truly represent a brick wall’s worth of hurt if you keep on flinging your resources at it.
You? Well apparently you now want to build a backyard swing that faces a brick wall. The wall may say ‘Mercedes’. Nice. But it ought to say something else in French that sounds a lot like ‘MR2′. To be PG about it, life will truly suck for you once you buy into that low quality brick wall.
Every day you will revel in the financial and emotional carnage that comes from keeping a bitchy car that torments your soul. Thousands of dollars. Months with one less car. Have you even priced out a transmission for one of these nasty little things? The fact that your friendly mechanic can’t even figure out the most recent problem should make you turn that swing of yours the other way. Yet you go on with tongue a-waggin’, ready to taste a brick wall’s worth of hurt. Why?
Because you have it too good. Two exceptional cars that work great. Low insurance costs. Virtually no ad valorem tax. Everything is good in life. But still you have this desire of looking on the opposite side of the automotive fence for the high cost, high maintenance, automotive version of Hannibal Lecter. My advice is simple. Put your wallet in a safe place and tear down that wall.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.
The actual dilemma is that cc-rider feels like he has to change something. Solution – get over it.
The only thing left from my B13 is the extra front lower control arm brace. I bought two while that guy in Cali was still making them, thinking I would stay involved with B13s. I didn’t stay involved because they all went away, they disappeared. You do see one now and then, limping along with tired springs and bumper hanging, mismatched wheels, with 300k on the clock.
While I had that car they went from “getting old but people still understand them” to “only teenagers care because they are all under $1,000 now”
I would take a clean 2 liter B13 over my clean Miata. Now thats a Dilemma.
Nissan drivetrain engineer, hearing of my passion for that car “Huh? Why?”
Don’t listen to these guys. Do it! You won’t regret it. Youakfaksldsalkjas
Sorry, my evil twin said that. I disagree with Sajeev. You should run, not walk, away from this deal.
the C36 is not worth nearly as much as you would initially think. It is pretty much at the bottom of its depreciation curve.
Uh, No. not even close. There is a reason your friend is offering to swap his giant money pit with a star for a cherry SE-R, and it ain’t because he has always had a thing for Nissans.
Sanjeev is right: unless this is the car that keeps you up at night dreaming, you will own it for less than 24 months, or as long as your wallet will provide the eternal flame.
Does the depreciation curve ever go back up, except for a few rare, all-original, low-mileage classics? Nice to think that it would, but experience says otherwise.
I agree with both Steve and Sajeev. I think just about all the B&B can agree that mid 80s to 1995 Mercedes are pretty good as old cars go, except some of the issues with things like vacuum operated windows and other little oddities. I’ve played with the idea of a say 1990-1995 300 or 400 series as a daily driver just for the Germanic-Teutonic cachet of the whole thing but knowing what it will cost me should anything go wrong (as opposed to say a Lincoln Town Car of the same vintage) has kept me from being serious about it.
If you really want a high powered RWD car there are much better choices out there. Hell even buying an old Panther and sticking a Mustang drivetrain in there would be cheaper in the long run.
Your idea might not be a bad one, but you need to find that older Benz that someone has kept up with all the maintenance. What you tend to find are older Mercedes that have had many owners, many miles, and dubious maintenance. Each time they change hands and as the car drops in value, people seem to put less effort into maintaining them. Four years ago I bought a pretty close to mint ’92 300D and it has been a great daily driver. I had to replace the head gasket and that was a rude hit but otherwise the car has been pretty reliable. It certainly helps if you can DIY repairs, but in general it is a must to find a decent independent mechanic. I’ve found a guy I trust who is very reasonable and that gives me some peace of mind. I plan on keeping his car quite a while.
I think everyone who posts here who has ever seen my comments realize that if I ever win the lotto the driveway of my new house will be filled with powerful sedans from all corners of the planet and of multiple vintages.
I can see why 50% of couples are destined for splitsville.
cc-rider, take it from a fellow nut: listen to these guys. Unless you have thousands of dollars to literally throw away on a car, you will suffer under this car. Personal experience with temperamental European cars with a bad reputation leads me to say that you will end up poorer, addicted to the car, but also so heavily invested in it that you will not be able to get anything near what you have sunk into it back out of it.
For example, say the transmission does go out. Do you really want to face sinking $5,000 into a car worth no more than just that one repair? And performing the repair will not increase the value at all, merely maintain its value.
An E36 generation BMW M3 with a manual transmission would be a fun German car with quirks but not too many major issues. Reasonable cost to service and maintain. Engines and manual transmissions are bombproof (just make sure the cooling system – the BMW weak link – is in good shape). Get one of those instead of the Benz.
Sonata Turbo? Please. The OP sounds like someone who wouldn’t enjoy driving a wrong-wheel drive Korean sedan with too many horsepower for a FWD drivetrain to handle. Swapping an SE-R Sentra for a Panther sounds like punishment.
If you want more fun on the road, a nice used SV650 or Ninja 250 plus all the gear and the MSF course add up to a little less than that. It’ll save you money instead of costing you, and you still have a car in addition to the motorcycle.
Owning a German car is like running through hell in gasoline-soaked drawers. You’re gonna get burned! An old one is even worse.
“Owning a Mercedes AMG is like running through hell in gasoline-soaked drawers. You’re gonna get burned! An old one is even worse.”
Fixed.
Owning a German car is like running through hell in gasoline-soaked drawers
That’s one of the funniest lines I’ve ever read. Kudos!
The Sam P version above is much more accurate. I have had my BMW for 3 years, and it is now 6 years old. It has not given me any trouble at all. I have had Asian car that were terrible. The key to owning a German car is timely maintenance. They do not suffer fools.
My 1998 328i sedan, manual has 103,000+ on it. It’s been oil changes and wear items only for over five years. To me, a C36 is not worth it. I’d go for a 2000 — 2002 E55, but not as a daily driver. As others have stated, the purchase price for a C36 or E55 should be considered a down payment. Maintenance and repairs can quickly exceed the purchase cost. What about a W211 E500 — almost as fast and no AMG parts mark up?
Twotone
Gotta agree with Sam P, swapping out the Sentra for any Panther or Hyandai sounds like purgatory to me. Don’t get me wrong these cars make great rentals, reliable they may be but so is my refrigerator.
Probably comes down to whether this car is a daily driver or not. If it is not and you can do some of the wrench work yourself I would say maybe. That being said I could see my missus getting upset if I had 2 toys instead of my current German toy and a sensible small pickup for the daily commute.
The first time you have to borrow her car when both of your RWD Teutonic wonders are off the road (it occasionally snows in CT?) you are going to catch some kind of cr@p.
My daughter and I have shared a 1999 C-43 for over 11 years, and never needed anything but routine maintenance. Routine means very expensive by the way with shocks going for over $200.00 each.
That said, these are true high performance automobiles. Few others come close.
Look for a well cared for V8 if you really want one.
Just wanted to add my two cents worth after seeing he had a “near mint” SE-R. Keep it! I purchased one new in ’92, drove it for 14 years, sold it to a fellow officer who gave it to his son to commute to school/work in Tucson, the son then drove it for 3 more years and then it wound up with a cousin in Mexico City where it’s still being used as a daily driver over some less than pristine roads and, so far, has avoided being caught in any cartel/military shootouts. I replaced the ’92 with an ’06 SE-R Spec V which now has 70K on it without any problems. Although the newer SE-R has a little more power and bells and whistles, I kind of wish I’d taken the old one to a good body shop, gotten the dents/dings knocked out, the headliner redone and a new paint job and kept it. The original SR20DE engine in the early SE-Rs has turned out to be one of Nissan’s best engine designs and it’s very difficult to kill even with two sticks. Kind of like the old small block Chevy back in the days of my youth. The older car seems to have been built to a greater degree of ruggedness than the new one. Don’t get me wrong, the ’06 runs well and is a little quicker than the old one but you can see where the bean counters had cut corners; even removed the lock on the glove box door……to save weight? :-)……My recommendation is to keep the SE-R and, maybe,
upgrade a little with a good aftermarket exhaust and a cai system and such. No need to rice it out in any overly dramatic fashion.
First “new” car I bought fresh out of college was a SE-R…God, what a great car! Small, light, nimble…bright red, simple black interior and a sunroof…one of only a handful of cars I should never have gotten rid of. Comparisons to being the “2002” of the 90s were pretty spot-on (having actually also owned a 2002!). If you’re looking for something new because you’re tired of the SE-R, that’s one thing. But taking on the financial headache of an old(er) Benz when you’ve been pampered by the relative lack of expense of the SE-R should tell you something. And if you’re serious about selling that SE-R, don’t do it (or at least post it here so one of us gets a shot at picking it up!).
Hey everyone- thanks all for chiming in. I appreciate the comments.
Here are some pictures of my se-r:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30728763@N05/sets/72157617713713467/
A long time ago I owned a gray market 1984 porsche 928 euro S. I am still haunted by the money I sunk into that car and would kick my own ass for making the same mistake twice.
The C36 owner had the car taken to the dealer last week and got the no start issue solved. It was a corroded wire leading to the rear fuse panel. He did get a print out of the VMI from Mercedes which lists all the work done at the dealer. He was going to sort out a few other issues sorted out by himself and get back in touch with me. In 1997, they only imported 200 of these cars. I wasn’t sure if they would have any collectability in the future.
I have owned probably close to 20 cars and the sentra is definitely one of the best I’ve had. It is just a lousy highway car. My suspension set up is fairly stiff and the car is buzzy on the highway. My wife hates the car with a passion and thinks it’s a unsafe tin can! Despite the love for the b13 from the B&B, resale value of them doesn’t really compare with the e30s. I am not sure if there are literally a hand full of nice ones left. It is near impossible to find a decent one these days.
Also, the 5 speed C36 is as quick as the newer C43 by all accounts.
As someone who has owned a few ‘Backyard swings facing a brick wall’ I should say go for it. If it’s a car you know you will love, and love to drive it’s going to be worth it on some level after all. on the other hand,of the two cars you own, the Nissan seems to be the more economic, reliable and practical car. So I can’t see what job the c36 would take as you allready have a quite fun, powerful little RWD car allready? The better thing to do would probably be to replace the Sentra with something even more ‘boring’ and reliable, and start hot-rodding the BMW. Or trade the BMW for the Merc.
My boss has a 97 C63. It treats him well, but he has the luxury of running a Mercedes Benz service department. Basically his repair costs are wholesale parts, and very little labor. He current;y needs a timing chain. Something that would not be cheap to service if you are the one paying the bill. Plus we also only have one tech at our dealership who is old enough to really know these older cars. Most of the other guys are more familiar with the new stuff.
Listen to Sajeev. Your SE-R really is mint. I dont think you understand how rare it is. They are impossible to find. Not impossible like its merely difficult. Truly impossible to find these cars in good shape. If you get rid of it, I guarantee you will be be kicking yourself in 5-10 yrs. Plus, I checked out your pics… your E30 appears to also be in mint condition. You have a great German car and a great Japanese car. They will not break, when they do they will be cheap to fix. Keep them both and enjoy them. The E30 makes a great highway car BTW.
The C36/C43 was my dream car of the late 90’s. I’m amazed at how tepid the performance of this AMG car is compared to a garden variety G37, Genesis V6 sedan, or even an C350 of today. I’m sure the C36 can out-brake any of them, but I don’t think the cachet is worth it unless you use it as a weekend car to save on maintenance costs.
An E46 or E90 330i also comes awfully close to the performance of a C36. Plus, you can get one with a clutch pedal.
I understand a newer Sonata, M3, G37, or Avalon etc all offer similar performance as the C36. I seriously doubt any owner of the aforementioned cars is going to trade my se-r for them though.
Steve, your response made me laugh till it hurt. I hope he hears you.
cc-rider, if you need to throw a grand at automotive boredom, try modifying the SE-R. It’s not a great idea, but it’s miles better than what you’re considering now.
My sentra is not stock. It is a stock looking car aside from the newer generation se-r 15″ wheels. The car has 113,000 original miles and I am the second owner. I have spent plenty of money over the last two years semi restoring the car. I have focused mostly on the suspension, brakes, and less so on the engine. Here is the list of what has been done on the car:
Front and rear bumpers have been resprayed
New headliner
JDM Skyline steering wheel
Just serviced the air conditioning w/ r12
4 Unorthodox racing pulleys
Hyperco Gen 2 Springs (1″ drop)
Koni Bump Stops with 4 new KYB AGX struts
NX2000 10″ front brakes
Maxima 10″ rear brakes
Altima master cylinder upgrade
Poly front suspension bushings
New motor mounts- stock on the sides and prothane dog bone
Mexican Tsuru head light upgrade
Front control arm brace
Front and rear strut braces
B14 sentra se-r wheels with 205/50/15 Toyo Proxes 4 tires
New Nissan Alternator
New Battery
Hot Shot header
Stromung cat back exhaust
Hot Shot CAI with Jim Wolfe Pop charger on the end of it
Calum version 4 NA ECU tune
Stainless brake lines all around
NX2000 storage center console
Decent alpine radio
Sounds like you enjoy wrenching which will really make any used old car cheaper. Unfortunately, the Mercedes has some real gremlins (like the wiring) and very expensive replacement parts. Better to get something with better/cheaper aftermarket support.
To the gent who asked the question: If you truly want to move along the SE-R, please contact me. I’m dead serious. I’ve owned 3 SE-Rs from that generation and have been thinking about getting yet another. My company is not far from you.
steve <AT> flatout-motorsports <DOT> com
Regarding the performance, some of the B&B seem to overlook the fact that back when this car came out, it was making Camaro SS amounts of power, in a tiny comfortable sedan.
Maintenance and reliability on the benz isn’t as horrifying as people are making it out to be, and it’s certainly no 928. It sounds like you’re not shy about working on a car nor spending a few bucks here and there to make sure the car runs and drives well. The engine takes a couple more quarts of oil than the SR20, the brake pads need to be changed more often, and the AT fluid and filter need to be changed religiously. I’ve heard the AT has a lifespan of 100-150k, but you’ll want to check with a benz person on that.
The major issues to look out for are the wiring harness and AT service. Some Mercedes specialists won’t diagnose electrical problems unless the harness is replaced first and the transmission is sensitive to maintenance more so than others. Maybe you and your friend can split the cost of a comprehensive PPI.
The only reason I advise against trading is because you are happy with the B13 and have a german sports sedan!
I look forward to hearing about what what you decide!