TTAC Commentator GS650G writes:
I am looking for a station wagon in lieu of a mini-van or CUV/SUV. Whereas before almost all intermediate cars were available in station wagon trim it seems only European brands and a few Japanese brands such as Subaru offer a true station wagon any longer.
I would like to move up a bit and go with either a BMW 3 series wagon or Mercedes R Class. Both trade in the 22K to 28K range. I don’t care for Volvo or SAAB wagons and their recent ownership changes has me concerned about the brands.
The Beemer and M-B seem like well-liked cars with practical carry space along with excellent driving dynamics. I’m not concerned with repair costs since I do my own work no matter what I drive.
So which would be the better choice, a 328i Wagon or a M-B 320 R? I would also compare to a M-B E-Class wagon if the price was right.
Sajeev Answers:
Modern cars are a bit complicated. And German cars are more than a bit complicated. I hope you don’t think you’ll fix any and all problems with these vehicular choices, unless you are a service tech in said brands. And you’re gonna need a service tech if you buy a Merc or BMW in this price range. So it doesn’t really matter which money pit you buy.
My opinion? You are biting off more than you can chew. The smarter move is to choose the unexpected, the almost station wagon: get decent down payment ready and buy a new Honda Crosstour. Did I just say that?
I’m okay with the Crosstour, as I normally loathe anything CUV-like. Yes indeed, the proper minivan or SUV floats my boat. And the Crosstour, name notwithstanding, is not much of a crossover: it’s a wagon in the slightly-tall Subaru tradition. While I find it’s schnoz somewhat CUV-loathsome, the rest of the package is appealing. Ish. Plus, it never needs expensive BMW or Mercedes parts. Buy that and be happy for years to come.
Steve Answers:
The guy wants excitement, not Valium. He’s also obviously an aspiring sadist.
Do you have any idea how complex these cars can be to diagnose? I have heard of BMW’s going into limp mode just because an aftermarket radio system was installed. Took six months for the dealership to figure that one out.
The R-Series contains all the parts that had broken down, or were about to, on the Barnacle Bitch. Airmatic suspensions. A cooling system that managed to constantly piss on itself. A navigation system that could get lost in 14 different languages. My mechanic is certified to work on Maseratis and even that couldn’t help us from getting stumped when it came time for diagnosing issues.
For me the BMW wins hands down. It has a far more sporting character. An exceptionally successful model run. Tons of great information at the enthusiast sites and beyond. Did I mention that Car & Driver bequeaths this golden child with the top position at the comparos whenever Csebe Csere falls asleep at a press conference? The Crosstour, Venza and E-Class are as dead-ass boring as an ADAM computer convention next to the Bimmer.
Long story short. If you must blow your financial brains out, the BMW is the way to go. That is unless you want to consider a Maserati. Do you live near Atlanta by chance? If so my mechanic would be happy to give you a hell of a deal to support his yachting hobbies. Actually, just kidding. The BMW will be pricey but fine… and it’s the better vehicle.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder. In a rush? Don’t be shy about asking to cut in line.
If you’re thinking “used,” I’d also look at the C-class wagons. There are a few of them out there. The R-Class is not as much of a wagon as it is a minivan.
3-er or R-class? That’s a crabapples-to-grapefruit comparison!
Make no mistake, the R-class is a 5000-lb 3-row CUV, not a wagon. Buick makes a *far* better 3-row CUV than Benz does, so head over to your Buick dealer and pick out a nice used Enclave. Or, you can get a newer, but less leathered Lambda with a Chevy / Saturn / GMC badge. Or, if reliability is the issue, and you need huge, get a Honda Odyssey.
The 3-er wagon is a much smaller, lighter mid-size wagon. But fun to drive. If driving is the key, then go for it.
Or get a Ford Edge / Toyota Venza to split the difference.
Could you stretch your budget on a new TSX Wagon? You will probably save the difference in longterm ownership, plus I think it has a great sporty look…for a wagon that is.
A new TSX Wagon comes in right where a used 2009 328I wagon sells for, so this very new model from Acura is being considered.
Since when is the R-class a wagon in the same vein as a 3 Series?
Anyway, the 3 Series wagon wins and I’d also consider either a C-Class wagon as well. Good luck with the money pits and happy motoring!
Since when is the R-class a wagon in the same vein as a 3 Series?
…since our protagonist is directly comparing the two.
If it is only between the 328i and the R350, I’d say go for the BMW right now.
But, the X-type wagon exists if you are willing to get really nuts, and seeing how you seem to be a bit of a gambler, there’s always the VW TDI wagon. Oh, last-gen SRX too! Those are fun.
It also might not be too much of a stretch from $28K to my new favorite car, the TSX wagon.
If you don’t need the badge-appeal, the last-gen Mazda6 had a fine wagon and there was also the enjoyable last-gen Outback XT.
According to Consumer Reports, the BMW 3-series has become more reliable of late. It’s still no Honda, but in the 2010 annual auto issue, the used car verdicts are “better than average” for ’04, ’07, and ’08,and “average” for ’05, ’06, and ’09 (which really isn’t bad). Nonetheless, the cost of ownership is “worse than average.”
But the MB E-class reliability is “much worse than average” for all of those years.
If you live in the Boston area, you can take advantage of having German Performance Service in Brighton. Marc Feinstein, the owner, has a great reputation, fair prices, and is as totally honest as his father-in-law, who my father hired for his first job (Tufts U professor).
I would not put this much fate in CR “ratings”. It has failed way too much – by either overblowing issues or underreporting them.
@Acubra
the ratings are based on reports from thousands of subscribers. While they aren’t perfect, they are a damn good indication of what you can expect from a car in the broad sense. I’ve bought three cars based on CR ratings, two of them used, one new. The only bad recommendation was the ’93 Saturn, which I bought new. I think the problem was that it was based on too little data since Saturn was still very new at that point, and the following year they were no longer recommending Saturn so highly.
Subaru Legacy GT wagon.
It will smoke that BMW for half the price.
Subie doesn’t sell the Legacy wagon in the US anymore. The only thing they have is the weird Outback abomination. If you can find it used it will probably not have depreciated enough.
Weird abomination? What’s up with that remark?
The Outback is very capable vehicle and on the single most important factor for most crapped out dirt road driving – ground clearance – it’s got most C/SUVs beat.
Yeah, the GT wagon was rare, but they’re so worth it. I’ve seen slightly modified (race brakes and spec B suspension) LGT wagons running down Caymans on the track.
The Outback XT is also good, it’s just the jacked up suspension kills the handling for a dubious benefit.
Then, there’s always my dream Subaru, the 05-09 Forester XT. Such a shame Subaru ruined that car, because if you ask me it’s the best one they’ve ever made.
>>Subaru Legacy GT wagon
+1. These are fantastic cars. I’m on my second Evo (drove an VIII for 6 years, then traded it in on a X) but my fantasy car is Legacy GT wagon enhanced with some choice STi hardware. I genuinely would have cross-shopped the Evo X against a Legacy GT Wagon had they still been offered in the US.
Since people are recommending the C-class, accordidng to Consumer Reports, the ’06 model year has “much better than average” reliability, 05,07, and 09 are average, 08 is “worse than average” and 04 is “much worse than average”.
R-class is a big car and a big yawn. Came very close to buying one then came back to my senses. The TSX Sportwagon is appealing except that you can’t get it with an MT nor can you have anything other than a 4-cyl. Where’s the sport in that?
I vote Bimmer with an MT.
Does Audi still offer the A4/A6 in Avant? What about a CTS-V wagon?
Yes, yes, and Hell, yes!
how about the new Acura TSX wagon. new and much simpler to “work on” yourself
“And you’re gonna need a service tech if you buy a Merc or BMW in this price range. So it doesn’t really matter which money pit you buy.”
Hit the nail right on the head.
I’d go for a decked out Venza, especially over a hideous Honda Aztec Crosstour. The Venza is much more beautiful (in my eyes anyway) than anything mentioned here, and will be much easier to service as well.
Oh come, now. The Crosstour in the same boat as the Aztek?
The Crosstour may not be the comeliest of cars but it’s not all that bad.
@Signal11
Yes it is.
Sajeev correctly states that the front is hideous, but he neglects to mention that the back half is even worse.
+1,000 on the “Honda Aztec Crosstour”….that bloat boad hurts my eyes!
oh, sheesh! the crosstour looks fine by modern standards. putting it in the same category with the aztek is evidence of the need for a new eyeglasses prescription, or perhaps some deeper malady within the visual cortex.
Count me in for the Crosstour =< Aztek.
Venza beats Aztek beats Crosstour.
If only Honda would find their way…
I own a 2007 328i wagon (or 328iT as they used to be called). Excellent car, VERY fun taking winding freeway ramps and pretending you just robbed a bank. But make no mistake – it is much smaller than a traditional wagon, at least in interior space.
Us wagon guys stateside have such a small selection, that I consider myself fortunate that at least BMW sees fit to bring a few over. If you’re wanting fun to drive with a nicer interior and a bit more room in the hatch, check out the A4 Avant. It’s fun as well, but that Turbo 4 has nothing on the 3’s inline 6. You could also pick up a hard to find 5 series wagon or A6 wagon… both are nice and have that lovely cliff depreciation working in your favor picking them up used.
I’m a bit confused on comparing the 3 to an R class, though. The R, as well as the E-class wagons are much bigger cars, more softly sprung and can accomodate bigger people and more gear (strollers, canoes, mall trips, etc.). The C wagon is a much more direct competitor. You should be able to get a good deal on a used R, though, as not many folks have much love for them.
If you’re wanting to compare the 3 to a bigger ride, I’d say the better comparison might be to the underrated Mazda5. They’re some of the only vehicles remaining in the US where you can get a stick if you want.
The TSX looks GREAT on paper and in person, but alas, no stick available.
I’ll echo that the 3 series wagon is deceptively small in the boot, probably more space in the sedan trunk but you can get full size adults comfortably in the back seat of the wagon. Ours has been nothing but bombproof and if like you say you are a DYI’er BMW’s are friendlier than they get credit for for driveway service much easier than a Honda/Acura (I own both). You can you-tube about any service short of an engine change and find a video of it due to the large enthusiast base. I bought the code reader and it has worked well, at least for the one time I have needed it. As for parts cost, seriously, this is the biggest unfounded rumor out there. Standard service parts, brakes, oil, filters, cooling system parts, suspension bits even window regulators and breakables are no more expensive than other cars and as mentioned above usually much easier to fix at home. Sure you need to have a local BMW indy guy located for anything weird but that need applies to any new car regardless of make if its out of warranty, and definitely applies to Honda/Acura’s because you wont be fixing those at home unless your a contortionist and like removing the entire front end of your car to replace a $4 part. If you can find one with a 6spd – Golden.
Volkswagen Passat wagon. We love ours and it wasn’t all that expensive used.
I don’t like the BMW wagon, mostly becuase it’s really small and gets arguably average fuel economy. The R-class is a sweet cruiser, but it’s more minivan than wagon. If something sporting is desired, I’d go with an A4 Avant (wagon) since they get much better fuel economy, are much bigger, all have AWD, and they are readily findable in base trim, which means less repairs down the road. Dealers hate these things and look to shed them at deep discounts. I’ve seen A4 Avants offered NEW for $30k. from the dealer. Don’t discoun the A3, either, which I really don’t feel is than much smaller than the A3 wagon, and can easily be had new within the stated budget.
If taller less sporting wagon is desired, it ‘s hard to beat a Toyota Venza, either new or used, and both at the buyer’s pricepoint.
The idea of the Accord crosstour is interesting, but the car is a visual abomination. I’d almost rather walk.
The A4 Avant has a bit more room in the hatch due the roof line, but not by much, and the fuel economy on the A4 is within 1-2 mpg of the 3. The cabin is of equal size. Not enough to swing someone one way or another.
According to the trip computer, I’m averaging just under 23 mpg with a moderately heavy right foot mixed city and highway.
Agreed on your Crosstour statement – did Honda deliberately make it look hideous? It definitely stands out.
One more thing.. if you get a 3er used, make sure it comes with the extended warranty. 2/3 of the last BMW’s I owned came with this, and the one that didn’t should have. Mechanically, they’re quite sound, but stupid crap like door locks, needless motors on trunk lids and window regulators tend to live short lives. The warranty at least ensures your first several years will be covered. After that, well, do you feel lucky? Of course, with no car payment, it’s less of an issue if you have to put money in to maintain it.
Anything I buy would probably be CPO with an extended warranty to at least 100K. My neighbor and best friend is a certified BMW technician so I do have an out should I decide to brave not getting a warranty plan.
A TSX wagon with coilovers, swaybars and pads would run right with a 328 all day long and give you just as much enjoyment without the headaches.
Until you hit a pothole. Sorry, I couldn’t resist.
I drive a similar setup everyday in an 09 sedan and it honestly doesn’t strike me as being harsh at all and certainly no worse than an aggressively sprung BMW. The mistake a lot of people make is going too aggressive on their street car. In the interest of full disclosure I regularly get out of this car and into a Civic and an Integra that are “street” cars using the loosest definition of the word so my perception may be skewed.
Go for a new Jetta TDI wagon. They are nice on the inside, and you will get that German complication, but with a new car warranty.
VW is notorious for failing to honor warranties, except possibly in a court of law in full view of a judge. I had a 2010 Jetta sportwagon TDI. Ask me how I know.
@sundowner
I’m guessing it was pretty bad, considering you used the past tense and a 2010 model isn’t that old and shouldn’t require the past tense yet.
“VW is notorious for failing to honor warranties, except possibly in a court of law in full view of a judge. I had a 2010 Jetta sportwagon TDI. Ask me how I know.”
How do you know? A 2010 should be fully covered, unless you did something you shouldn’t have. So unless you can tell us exactly what happened I’m not buying your story.
Okay. Evidently, I didn’t get the memo. What’s wrong with the Crosstour? I don’t see the hideousness that everyone else seems to. Is it me or were that many people effected by the anti marketing hype?
In the same boat. I don’t need something that big, but I don’t actively hate it either. I can actually vaguely see around them in a regular sedan.
Agreed. I would rather get a Crosstour of an Accord just for the extra utility…I’m wondering why more people aren’t making that choice.
@civicguy
I’m guessing people aren’t liking that you can only get a Crosstour in the highest trimlevel offered (at least as far as I know) and they can’t be had with a 4 cylinder like the Venza (which I also don’t think is terrible looking – nothing I’d buy, but that beside the point).
I’m with you. It’s a perfectly decent looking car. And MUCH better than any CUV or SUV
I’m assuming you mean masochist. Just my little non-addition to the discussion. :)
Rats. You beat me to it.
A masochist says “hurt me.” A sadist says “no.”
To put end to all R-Class debates above. R & E keys are next to each other on the keyboard. I am sure the guy had the E-Klasse on his mind.
Then why would he write “I would also compare to a M-B E-Class wagon if the price was right” at the end if he was already comparing the E-class wagon to the 3er?
Not that I’ve shopped recently, but E-wagons are rather hard to find and seem a little pricey in the used car market, compared to German CUV/SUvs.
The R class depreciated more than any other M-B and way more than the E class. The V-8 model was particularly interesting from a performance standpoint but pretty hard on gas.
I was in a situation like this recently and did tons of research. I wanted a wagon. Still have not bought anything due to my employment situation, but perhaps I can be of some help.
The 3 series wagons are tiny tiny tiny. Not much utility in the long rung, but super fun to drive (when it is operating!).
Someone mentioned the discontinued Mazda6 wagon. They are sharp looking and roomy. Look into it. The Mazda5 is neat too, but a little anemic under the hood.
Do yourself a favor and check out some Subarus. Someone above mentioned the discontinued Outback XT (it’s a turbo). Definitely worth a look, but since they are discontinued, and kind of a cult car, they go for premiums of $28k-$29k (the 2008 and 2009 models, which were the last ones). The current Forester XT might be good, but it is kind of a crossover or small SUV. The 2010/11 Outbacks are crossover-esque, but still decidedly wagon-like in terms of overall form factor. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by it, especially the 6 cylinder flavor.
Just get a 2007 A6 Quattro Avant and call it a day…..
Its a shame he said no Volvos. 22k buys a nice V50.
I would agree. My mom just bought a 2007 with 55k miles, almost loaded for 17k. She loves it.
Agreed! I don’t get how their current owners affect the cars already out…
If you feel tempted to give into these suggestions for the TSX wagon, just drive it, and then drive the 3er wagon. I think you’ll find the latter to be quite a revealation in driving dynamics compared to the former. To quote a commenter on another forum referencing the TSX wagon, ” . . . faux-luxury, fake-sporty, torqueless, front-wheel-drivey boremobile.” To which I’ll add slushboxy and button-y. Bite the bullet and buy the bimmer. And I’ll echo the advice above to get it CPO with the extended warranty.
Yeah, because a 328 is the pinnacle of luxury, sport and torque… The TSX is soft in stock trim and I’ve never argued otherwise but you can, with well chosen modifications, create a legitimately engaging car that’s fun to drive and won’t give you any headaches. As the owner of a modified 09 sedan and a shameless Honda fanboy I’m obviously biased but I did cross shop slightly used BMWs before making the purchase. I’ve always enjoyed their cars and there’s no question they’re competent handlers right out of the box but I live in the real world where out the door price, cost of ownership, fuel economy and reliability actually matter, unlike so many car blogs and forums. Double my income and make it practical to own another comfortable DD and I would be in an M3 so fast it would make your head spin but short of that happening it really can’t be justified logically.
“The TSX is soft in stock trim and I’ve never argued otherwise but you can, with well chosen modifications, create a legitimately engaging car that’s fun to drive and won’t give you any headaches.”
Can the Crosstour be similarly modified?
I haven’t done any research on the crosstour and I don’t imagine it’s a very popular car to modify but like almost every Honda platform ever I’m sure it shares a lot of hard points with a car that is popular to mod (in this case the accord) so it wouldn’t surprise me at all.
The Crosstour is NOT Accord based. It is based on the Pilot/Odessey platform.
Umm, yes it is.
Csaba Csere has not been at Car & Driver for more than a year now. He was replaced by Eddie Alterman, and the magazine has improved dramatically.
OR…. How bout a nice Infinity EX35? Reasonably reliable, sporty, luxurious, and not just another MB or BMW.
Cramped. Very, very cramped.
Oh. Well then I’m fresh out of ideas.
I do find the Crosstour to be a bit of a whale. It’s the ghastly answer to a question nobody ever asked. I try to imagine the very particular set of wants/needs that would drive someone to plunk down 35 large. They want something with ground clearance, but yet low to the ground. They want something ‘sporty’ without being fast or handling very well. They want something ‘bold’, but unable to tow much or really go off road. They want something with ‘utility’, but not enough utility to be practically useful. What they don’t want, for sure, is a minivan. What they don’t need, for sure, is an SUV (but who does, really?). The result of all these conflicting and irrational synapses is the Crosstour.
In answer to the question – either the BMW or the Mercedes is a great choice, but for slightly different reasons. As long as it’s understood that these cars require vigilance in preventative maintenance and repairs – which can all be accomplished by a competent independent mechanic. If you wants something with fewer headaches and all the utility and more, the Subaru Legacy or Outback can be sourced with leather and all the luxury goodies the reader craves. And to allay any fear, Volvo and Saab parts are surely going to be readily available long past your ownership.
I was in a similar situation and picked up the IS300 Sportcross. Very nimble, decent power, and great stopping.. Only problem might be finding a clean example. But you should be good to go way under 20k. The V50 is also pretty decent and with the AWD/T5 version you have some power to play with as well. This would have been our choice if we didn’t stumble upon the Lexus.
The problem is finding ANY example. That IS300 wagon seems to be rarer than unicorns.
+1 this is the first thing that came to my mind… good thing I read the comments before posting! I love these… granted… they are extremely hard to find, but what a great choice over the German options.
Jetta Wagon TDI! Still on the MKV platform, MKVI front clip and interior. Available MT to boot! Sure, someone on here mentioned the problems with his, but he should’ve lemon law’d it and gotten another one!
Driving dynamics you say? Try to find a 2009 JSW with the 2.0T. They were only made in that year. I guess they got the axe for cannibalizing A3 sales…
Oh yeah…the A3…that’s a wagon too…
Mine was a lemon to the core.
were it not for the frequent battles over the stubborn refusals of VW to fix the car, I would have gotten another one. It really really is the perfect ‘car’ in terms of all around utility, sportiness, and economy. The only problem with it is circled on the grille.
We also own an Audi a3, which is also damn near the perfect car, minus 18″ of cargo room in the back. Oddly, it also fixes the problem with the grille. yes, we’ve had problems with it, but Audi has bent over backwards to fix it where VW has stonewalled.
Ah, so YOU’RE the guy who posted about his 2010 JSW on the Hammer Time a while back. I guess VW has changed quite a bit since 2004 when I worked at a VW dealer, which was pretty reputable.
They once got VW to buy back a 2004 Passat after 6 months because the customer complained the velour seats “were a magnet for hair.”
Another customer test-drove a red Beetle Convertible, but wanted a BRAND-NEW one…still in the wrapper. She got that one but it had so many problems, that while wrangling with VW, the dealer just bought it back and then sold her the one she originally test-drove. I don’t remember the outcome with VW on that one.
A final situation is a customer complaining his Golf GL was not getting “good fuel economy” and while VW drove the car themselves for a week, they could not explain anything. Again the dealer bought back the GL Golf and he got a GTI instead. I believe VW bought the car back, but cleared the dealer to resell the car as CPO. I remember that one because I did the paperwork on that one.
I still want a JSW TDI. I will roll the dice, but have a good lawyer handy. The “reputable dealer” I used to work at was sold to a company I do not trust. I had a 2000 Jetta TDI that went 100,000 miles in 4 years. Yes, there were problems. 3 major ones. 2 were the fault of the dealer. I had to pay for all three…luckily I got a discount.
He might not be ‘the guy.’ A young woman I know who used to be a production line engineer at Ford has a 2009 or 2010 Jetta wagon TDi, and she was part of a class action lawsuit over it! Another friend has a 2008 GTI DSG, and lawyers have been involved in his relationship with VW for well over a year after they’d been refusing to repair problems from the start.
Used top-trim prior-gen Mazda6 V6?
You (and a few others mentioned this). As the owner of a 2005 Mazda6 Wagon (5MT), I very much agree. Finding an automatic really isn’t that hard. A stick will be tough, though. But it’s a great and fun car. You lose the badge bragging rights for sure. Remember, price is what you pay…value is what you get. [6 wagon = higher value and lower price, IMO). The RWD BMW sure would be a lot of fun, though
We own a R500; it really is “the minivan for those who can’t admit they need a minivan”
It has all of the cost of a Mercedes and none of the practicality of virtually any minivan or stationwagon I have ever driven. Allow me to explain:
The back doors are as big as the back doors on my 7 Series — which means every time one of my kids open the doors, the car next to us receives a giant dimple (which is why we always park far away, children…). The interior, while relatively nice looking, is made of the cheapest materials I have ever seen in a Mercedes and self destructs with a mere touch. And then there is the cost of maintenance – eye watering doesn’t even begin to describe how expensive this mobile black hole is. Oh yeah, and the driving dynamics of this 5000+ pound vehicle is for S%it.
Even my wife now admits we should have gone with the Oddessy. Run far, far away.
That’s an interesting inversion. You wanted the real minivan (Odyssey) and the wife wanted the not-a-minivan R?
Yep — I liked the way the Honda drove, its competence in moving three young-uns, and its less than 40% of the Mercedes MSRP fully loaded (Touring – with leather, DVD, backup camera, you name it)
But like many things in life, an opinion is only an opinion (particularly when held by a husband)
We have a R500, too. I utterly loathe the giant rear doors – and what’s even stupider is that they’re longer than they need to be.
Totally agree that the interior plastics are poor. Stupid seatbelt holders are ridiculously fragile – better they weren’t included in the first place. And despite being 5000 lbs, not so much cargo space.
I’m so hugely envious of people with Lambda CUVs. If I could simply swap our R500 for an Enclave or Acadia, I’d do so in a heartbeat.
I really appreciate your candor, Cat. It’s a refreshing bit of honesty to admit that the minivan is the better choice. And at a fraction of the cost of the MB.
I think for most people with kids, a minivan or minivan-like option is the most rational choice. Image be damned, the just work for a modern family. I did drive a new optioned-out Toyota Sienna several months ago, and while the overabundance of gee gaws turned me off, the driving experience wasn’t shameful. My brother with two young kids has a VW Eurovan Weekender and a Mazda 5 – both have sliding doors and fit neatly in the garage. The Eurovan has the advantage of having a camper top, and the Mazda has a 5-speed, which makes it fairly sporting to drive.
While my wife and I are loathe to get rid of our beloved Volvo, with kids on the horizon I can see the possibility of a minivan joining the fleet.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, however painful. My wife and I are looking for a car-based SUV with a useful 3rd row to replace her Lexus ES, and after checking out the Mazda CX-9 (underwhelming interior; too thirsty), 2011 Ford Explorer ($40k+? Heck no. Hate the touch screen, too), Toyota Highlander Hybrid (expensive; concerned about reliability), and Enclave/et al (just too big for her), I landed on a 2009-2010 R-Class diesel, while she prefers the 2011 Sienna.
After reading your review and others, I’m loath to add a Mercedes to my fleet that includes a 17-year-old Porsche and a nine-year-old Range Rover. It looks like we’ll go with the Sienna, but we’re concerned about its fuel mileage. If only a diesel or hybrid minivan were available.
To belatedly respond to GS650G’s request, given those two options I’d go with the BMW. Given recent experiences with Audi (friends and family, mostly) I can’t recommend that route. Even though they’re not on his list, I would check out Volvo wagons.
If mileage is the issue, a 4000-lb Sienna will easily get better mileage than the 5000-lb R-class, *especially* compared to a V8-engined R500.
@cat
Haha, I’m the Last (Straight) Bachelor Standing in my circles so I’ve seen just about all of my buddies eventually make way for the minivans. My sister and brother in law just went with a minivan a few days ago, despite his objections. They were considering the Caddy and the R for a while, but eventually went with the Toyota.
’tis true; once you have more than 1 little one, a minivan is just the way you have to go.
That does not mean, however, you shouldn’t have something a little bit scary in the garage for “me time.” As the original ad for the Boxster once said “The more children you have, the more two seats make sense.” When the day comes, make sure you hang onto your toys – you can always replace/upgrade, but you can’t acquire a new one!
People who still haven’t learned not to buy German cars are called Masochists. The people who sell them are the Sadists.
Err…Dodge Magnum R/T anyone?
Not a bad choice, but if you’re willing to pay E- or R-Class money, you may as well opt for the Magnum SRT-8.
True. I really miss that vehicle though.
+1 for the Magnum!
Find a low mile SRT8, spend another $3500 for a supercharger and run 11 second quarter miles ALL day.
Modding potential is huge, great online forum support, and it’s actually a car that you can work on yourself.
Agreed. I was wondering why that was not suggested if the R was not considered too big. I still am perplexed by how many folks say the Germans are so horribly unreliable. Why has that stigma not poisoned the brands? I do have a friend with a 2003(?) 330 convertible with the MT. Bought with 60K on it, it has needed the expansion tank, water pump, and an A/C hose. Not a great start but we shall see. What a drive, though. That six is like butta.
+1 on the Magnum (again).
Excellent combination of space, ride, utility, power and style. I purchased a CPO ’08 in late ’09 and stole it off the lot – excellent deals to be had. I am currently looking to upgrade to a 2008 SRT8 (I prefer the ’08 nose/interior to the ’05-07) but they are EXTREAMLY rare.
Worth your time for a test drive…
BMW all the way. The E90 has been a fantastic platform. Make sure to change ALL of the fluids every 30k (including the supposed ‘lifetime transmission fluid’) and you will be good to go. Also do oil changes every 7500. You will LOVE that car.
Last generation Cadillac SRX – just a slightly tall wagon
(P.S. I’ve never driven one so it might be a pile of garbage)
Subaru’s are ok but drink fuel – My wife’s 2005 outback LLBean (3.0) averages around 16 – 18 mpg in town and around 20 – 22 mpg on highway and that’s on premium fuel
My 04 SRX has been great… no problems whatsoever. I only have 76,000 miles on it so it does not have a lot of highway miles. My overall gas milage for the 76K is 19.7 mpg. To me, the SRX handles great. Don’t know about the later models.
If you can wait for the next sudden increase in gas prices, you could probably pick up a nice 16 MPG SUV for way less than $22k. If you don’t drive very many miles, that would be a cost-effective approach.
The R class suffers the same fate as the other US built Benz trucks. Dirt cheap interior, terrible electronics, lousy driving experience, nightmare quality. Redeeming qualities? Zero.
Audi Avants should be at the top of your list, followed by BMW. The 4-cyl TSX wagon is a boring FWD slug, with an interior worse than a Volvo or Saab.
Oh, why do I bother? Well, why not. Dodge Journey – after all, it may be the “world’s most perfect vehicle”! Not a van, not a wagon. Seems to make sense, but I’m so late to this party, so I suppose it doesn’t matter. That’s what I get for being away for the afternoon.
I’m not sure how those things wear long term but I rented one a while back for a long weekend at a buddy’s cabin and it swallowed four guys and gear, food and beer for four days with absolute aplomb. Not the most engaging car to drive but it’s comfortable and completely inoffensive in its road demeanor. I bet you can steal a used one all spec’ed up too.
I will chime in since I work on MBs all day and a disproportionally high number of R-classes. If you want a nice minivan, buy a fully loaded Odyssey as others have said. If you want a luxury wagon, the CTS sportwagon would be my choice, and I am the last person to recommend a GM product, but it is pretty good. One of the Audi Avants would also be a decent choice, but much, much more finicky.
Back to the R-Class, it has no good qualities. If you don’t mind that you are paying a very premium price, for a mediocre interior, then the repairs should scare you off. You think you can work on these, but even I have to get help from my 18 years MB experience guru co-worker all the time. Who are you going to ask? They have electrical issues. Taillights aren’t properly grounded, and you will need a wiring update on anything more than a couple of years old. These cars have an electronic shift actuator. It has a small back up battery to power this if the normal battery fails. The problem is that the system isn’t very good at charging this backup battery. The fix is installing a DC/DC converter to raise the charging voltage. An expensive and complicated repair, that I am doubtful you will be able to perform on your own. Even the regular battery is below the front passenger seat. It takes about an hour to replace by techs who do it regularly. Almost everything has it’s own control module. Many gremlins pop up and require software updates to resolve. Only a dealer can perform the updates, and they are not cheap. As Steve said, many problems with the Airmatic air suspension. If that all doesn’t scare you off then consider that you also might need to replace the balance shaft. The sprocket that drives it via the timing chain wears, causing a timing fault. The repair requires you to pull the engine, take it apart, replace the balance shaft, timing chain, rear main seal, and countless other parts. It takes the aforementioned guru tech about 3 uninterrupted days to perform. The rest off us do it in about 5 days. I’m probably forgetting other major issues. In short don’t do it.
Mercedes should be ashamed of this. Has there been any dialogue between the stores and corporate about how terrible this car is or do they expect the customer to shut his mouth and pay for the “privilege” of owning a MB?
I knew the R class was bad, but now I am downright scared. At least when the RMS/IMS fails in a Porsche, you still have a Porsche (wink, wink….)
I personally dislike the R class of MBs. So this isn’t about the vehicle itself.
But MBella , I’ve read your other posts, and in addition to this one you have said many ERRONEOUS things about repairing MBs and have implied several generalities that are basically incorrect.
Where are you employed and in what capacity? Are you a trainee working under a tech? Have you been to Mercedes-Benz technical training school? Which campus? NJ, IL, or CA? Are you in the ELITE program? I’m sorry, but several of the things you have said in reference to servicing MBs are wrong.
That said, the R isn’t a very good choice. That I will agree.
The fact that the R-class landed with a thud is proof of the problem with the car:
2005 = 5k
2006 = 18k
2007 = 13k
2008 = 8k
2009 = 3k
2010 = 3k
Customer word of mouth killed the car in the second year, and nobody is re-upping on the 3-year leases 2008+.
The good thing is it’s very cheap used, thanks to depreciation like a boulder off a high cliff…
Don’t know about MBella’s resume, but on this he is pretty knowledgeable.
Taillights aren’t properly grounded? Check — had to replace the left and right rear taillight harnesses on a car less than 5 years old — even my 79 Jaguar can’t make that claim.
Battery replacement behind rear passenger seat a B&tch to replace? Check – car died in the garage (wife left the lights on because the light selector turned all the way to the left, rather than turning the lights off, leaves the left front and rear on. WTF?). Took 3 hours to get it out because the passenger seat, of course, is powered. No power, no movement.
Control module issues? Check. Car has had “body control sensors” for back automatic liftgate replaced, as well as the modules for the panoramic roof.
Other wiring issues? Check — Car had an “SRS” failure. Required the entire steering wiring loom to be replaced (at least this was done under a recall warrantee; and a good thing, too, because it would have been nearly $1K)
Long and short — don’t know about MBella’s credentials, but on this one he speaks the truth. The figures that SVX Pearlie shows what a subpar piece of kit this car is.
MBELLA is a technician in a MB dealership so I’d trust him on this. He also worries about the company and the direction it’s headin in.
I think it’s a little out of order to challenge a person and to ask him (or her) to publicly expose his identity when what’s being said could very plainly be used retributively by his employers without first stating the specifics of what you disagree with him about.
Seems to me that in a semi anonymous public forum such as this one, the onus is on the challenger to first present his case by bringing up the specific. If MBella is indeed misleading us, that would be good to know, but as I see it the way alwaysinthecar called out MBella isn’t really fair. What’s he wrong about?
+1 for the Magnum R/T or Mazda 6 wagon. Both are excellent used values and decent cars.
I think we need an expose article on why German vehicles are so unnecessarily complicated. There has to be mole who wants to let the truth out.
It’s all cars. The days when there was a knob on the dash actually connected to a valve or lever in the engine compartment that actually did something, and the days when a guy that was reasonably handy with a few basic tools could fix something, are long gone.
Yes, its’ all cars. What I’m referring to is unnecessary complication. For example, if the average US car had 10 units of unnecessary complication in 1970 and the average Mercedes or BMW had 11 units in 1970.. In 2011, an American or Japanese car might be 40 units, but a BMW Mercedes or Porsche is pushing closer to 75.
Of course these numbers do not mean a thing, but I’m getting at certain European makes far exceeding the normal rate of complicating things. Such as getting rid of oil dipstick tubes for the engine and transmission and adding electronic doodads to replace the tried true inexpensive 100% reliable standard.
Or a battery backup powered electronic shift actuator. I’m not sure what this does, but if you lose electrical power while driving, what is this thing supposed to do that it needs backup power? And if the backup fails, what happens under normal circumstances when electrical power to this thing is fine and no backup battery required?
Yes, its’ all cars. What I’m referring to is unnecessary complication. For example, if the average US car had 10 units of unnecessary complication in 1970 and the average Mercedes or BMW had 11 units in 1970.. In 2011, an American or Japanese car might be 40 units, but a BMW Mercedes or Porsche is pushing closer to 75.
Of course these numbers do not mean a thing, but I’m getting at certain European makes far exceeding the normal rate of complicating things. Such as getting rid of oil dipstick tubes for the engine and transmission and adding electronic doodads to replace the tried true inexpensive 100% reliable standard.
Or a battery backup powered electronic shift actuator. I’m not sure what this does, but if you lose electrical power while driving, what is this thing supposed to do that it needs backup power? And if the backup fails, what happens under normal circumstances when electrical power to this thing is fine and no backup battery required?
I know I’m late to the party, but may I suggest a 1996 Buick Roadmaster Wagon?
The Caprice wagons seem to have been hit harder with the depreciation stick. If our commenter is interested in a engine swap, how bout an ultra rare Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser wagon?
Update:
I bought a TSX Sportwagon with the Tech package. Could not find a low mileage BMW 3 series wagon used anywhere near me that wasn’t overpriced. And the R350 really does have known expensive problems that explains it’s low resale price. I’m happy to have a new car with great features and performance.
Great purchase, enjoy the car! If you find yourself wanting a more sporting edge there are a ton of quality components out there that can up the fun factor a great deal.