No good can possibly come from a story that starts with “Chrysler has been bumping along on a couple of flat tires in recent years.” And it doesn’t. After recommending only one Chrysler model, the RAM 1500 pickup, over the last three years, Consumer Reports tested eight Chrysler models to see how they have improved.
CR is mildly impressed by the Dodge Charger, the Durango, and the Town & Country. CR finds that the Charger “now scores close to the Ford Taurus and Buick LaCrosse.” The Town & Country receives a “considerably improved.” And yet:
“Although they performed well enough, none of those three are recommended because they are too new for us to have reliability information.”
So what about the cars where Consumer Reports has reliability information?
“We are not impressed with the 200, Avenger, Compass, Journey, or Patriot. Despite some improvements, they’re still mediocre overall, scoring at or near the bottom of their respective categories and too low to be recommended.”
Ouch.
When Bloomberg called Consumer Reports for a statement, David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports’ auto test center, answered:
“Chrysler is on the right path, but they still have a long way to go.”
Ouch again.
No doubt we’ll hear from the Fiatsler fans how CR has it in for Fiatsler products. I’m all for choice and I say: take the model of your choice for a test drive yourself, and then compare it other brands in that same vehicle class. Judge for yourself!
Fiatsler vehicles are the easiest to finance through their finance arm and many people with credit problems who are turned down by other finance companies can find that they’re welcome at Fiatsler. If it sells their cars…… I say “Good for them”.
Exactly one year ago, on Father’s Day in 2010, I did just what you suggest and Chrysler won by a mile. I paid cash (well, actually, wrote a check). Now, eat a crow.
What are the Chrysler product you own? To my knowledge the only Chrysler product you own is a Jeep Wrangler. What are you impressions of Chrysler products?
Indeed, cross-shopped it with Xterra and FJ. ‘Terra is a great SUV, but a bit too big, expensive for what it is. Only comes with a rear locker. FJ is sportier and it’s basically what Wrangler could be if Chrysler listened to CR’s carping. Ride quality is better. Still, the usual tax of SUVs: if you want an off-road model, you have to pay for “goodies” such as back-up camera. No front locker either. Wrangler, however, comes in stripper versions. Mine has no electric windows or locks, but it’s a Rubi with 4.10 gearing and 4:1 transfer case, front locker, electric roll bar. Chrysler understands what a Jeep is, and Toyota does not quite get it. Nissan really was a strong contender, and if they were selling the previous gen Xterra, I might’ve gotten it.
TrueDelta reports that Wrangler is about twice worse than FJ, so of course this has to be considered. But it’s so much better as a jeep, that I decided to take the possible reliability hit and get the bailoutmobile.
The point is, the poster didn’t say “car”, he said “vehicle”.
Pete, if it works for you, go with God my friend! There was no doubt in my mind that the article about CR panning Fiatsler (yes, folks, that’s what it is now that Fiat owns it) would bring out the wrath of the fanboys. But, like I said, I’m all about choice! There will always be fanboys, bless their souls.
I drove Ford and GM for all of my life until my wife chose to buy a 2008 Jap-built Highlander Limited AWD to replace her ’92 Towncar. Our experience with that Highlander was so good that it prompted me to buy a 2011 Tundra 5.7 SR5 last January and retire my 2006 F150.
But you might want to check out what Forbes had to say, as well, about Fiatsler. And from a personal perspective, I have brothers in the new car retail industry that sell several brands to the public and fleets, including several foreign brands, and they have told me that they steer clear of taking any Chrysler products in trade. If forced to do so to make a sale they offer a substantial amount BELOW KBB trade-in values to minimize potential losses.
The key to buying a new car without remorse is to do due diligence, as in shopping around and comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. If what you bought works for you, that’s great. I shopped around too. Compared what Ford and GM had to offer, and bought better. Works for me.
If the number of new Grand Cherokees, Grand Caravans, and Durangos I have been seeing on the road is any indication, many people have been doing just that. I am not in the market for a new car, but if I was, I wouldn’t avoid the Chrysler showrooms altogether.
Fiatsler? Seriously? Usually when people come up with and use witty little combinations of two names turned into one it has something resembling a ring to it. You use it repeatedly trying to point out how funny and witty you are but just come off looking like you’re trying too hard and appearing a bit sad…
Mike, I didn’t come up with the name Fiatsler. That name for what was formerly known as Chrysler has become more accepted in the trade than Phoenix v3.0. And now that Fiat owns it and calls all the shots, it does seem more appropriate for a company resurrected from the dead.
Before you think of me as sad, remember that I am all about choice. We should all buy what works best for us. The more choice we have, the merrier. I look forward to more disposable cars coming in from China, India, and where ever, just so we can have a choice in what works best for us, without having to pay kickbacks to the UAW with inflated and padded MSRP stickers.
But at the same time I am opposed to bail outs, hand outs, and nationalization of failed companies, banks, investment houses and mortgage lenders, no matter which political party does it. I’m not alone in this matter. Seriously!
I also would like to see ALL foreign car makers pack up their toys and move south of the border. That way we don’t have to listen to the UAW whine about right-to-work states and it would keep a lot more Mexicans from coming over here.
I prefer “Fiasler” myself… so close to “fiasco”…
And +1 on the desire to keep Mexican jobs in Mexico (and UAW members looking over their shoulders nervously.)
Rob, Boeing may just lose that lawsuit brought against them by the NLRB in SC, and when they do, SC and America can kiss those jobs, and all the spin-offs, goodbye because Boeing will move those jobs to China or India.
I live about 100 miles north of El Paso, TX, in the desert and a rail line runs north/south along US54 about 10 miles from my place. The number of mile-long trains going North hauling car-carriers filled with Mexican-built (domestic brand) cars every day just waters my eyes. So I know it works for the domestic brands. I’d love to see the foreign brands follow suit because the UAW will continue to make them an issue.
highdesertcat, I’m very familiar with the Boeing issue in South Carolina. (I’m also about 300 miles north of El Paso, in Albuquerque.) I work in aviation media, and followed the IAM strike in 2008.
I’m absolutely fine with the idea of Boeing moving Dreamliner jobs to SC to avoid crippling strikes by union workers in Washington state. I simply can’t believe a move like that could be considered “illegal” for any reason.
It’s a company’s job to build product and make money. Period. If they can’t do that in America thanks to the knots we’ve managed to tie ourselves into, then it serves us right to see those jobs leave. Fortunately, I’m pretty sure Boeing will come out on top… and if it doesn’t, I suspect there will be hell to pay.
Well said, Rob. What is most important to me is creating jobs in America, for Americans. And without taking political sides, Obama’s been on the job for more than two years no and he, and his administration, just keep on blaming his predecessor and what the inherited. Even a devout Democrat must see by now that Obama owns the current state of the economy.
I remember 9/11 and the economic impact it had on all of us. I do not recall Bush blaming the terrorists at any time for the economic incentives he had to take to right America’s economy. He just did it. Did what was necessary. And as a result of his actions I was better off during Bush than I was even under Clinton!
This unionization of America isn’t working for most Americans. I hope Boeing wins, but only the Supreme Court can settle that case.
Well, yeah, some of those older products need to be replaced.
This times a million. The 200/Avenger is a refresh of a car that was never exactly remarkable in the first place, for example. The Compass/Patriot/Caliber is also less-than-likable.
…and as for the Journey: why does it exist?
The Journey makes all kinds of sense as an upsized alternative to a CR-V or RAV4. I have driven one; nice enough to drive, but the interior was horrid. Apparently that’s been addressed.
Nothing to do battle with Corolla, Civic, Focus, Cruze, or Elantra, either. Chrysler is still in a world of pain, but no one ever said it would be easy to crawl out of an abyss of mediocrity.
I can’t recall any group/website/mag that reviews cars sounding over impressed with Chrysler since…
Bunter
Hey, the Eagle Vision was a fantastic car. There was a period in the early- to mid-90’s when Chrysler did seem to be way ahead of the curve, with the LH cars, the Neon, the Cirrus and the Town & Country all at the top of their respective classes – but it ended right around the time they were swallowed up by Daimler.
Actually, I dont recall CR EVER liking the Neon, the few roundups I saw them test one, it ended up near the bottom.
Could be wrong though.
Early 90’s? Seems like everybody I can remember having a chryco product back then got burnt by a transmission failure or something. And the Neon had a lot of marketing money spent on it, but I remember mostly lukewarm reviews, the early to mid 90’s were when Honda was the king of the small car game. I really don’t understand the Daimler bashing, it wasn’t like Chrysler was exactly the leader in much of anything before Daimler showed up, and the general public’s impression is that quality and technology got better after the Daimler takeover.
The cars were very good at the time. Yes, there were quality problems. Oops.
I had a Stratus for a while. It drove really well and got good mileage (~26 highway), even while leaking quarts of oil from its faulty head gasket! I never loved the car, but I do somewhat regret selling it.
Now that the Made in Detroit novelty has worn off, and the 200 is finally seen for the pig that it is, there really is nothing noteworthy in the Chrysler lineup.
I’m still laughing about how they have nothing to compete against the Civic and Accord. And they haven’t for years.
Seriously Chrysler, how hard is this. You can basically break up the cars by small, medium, and large. You need a pickup truck, a CUV, and an SUV. And maybe a Hybrid.
Make one vehicle for each of these segments. It’s not that hard.
No, it’s not that hard, if you actually know what you’re doing. (debatable at Chrysler)
But it’s incredibly expensive. (prohibitively so at Chrysler)
And time-consuming if you want to make a *good* car. (clock is ticking…)
Quality, and reliability need more than will.
Need time, need real changes.
But mainly, consumer´s satisfaction.
As I am not a CR subscriber, what exactly are they not impressed with on Chrysler’s re-freshed products? I get the feeling that their dismissal of some of their models may be subjective and based on emotion/personal likes/dislikes rather than actual inferior, provable information.
Having said that, I too, am wary of Chrysler as far as buying one until I get a better read on actual reliability – does the car start everyday and get you to where you want to go and back again?
Apparently CR feels the same way?
Zack, it isn’t just CR that panned Chrysler. Check out Forbes and their articles on the “10 worst used cars” and “The worst cars on the road”. Fiatsler is prominently represented in both articles, along with GM. Something dealers already know and try to steer clear of.
Because everybody uses Forbes as their first resource for automotive news, right?
I don’t know that I would trust them for financial information after having read some of their poorly researched automotive lists…
The same Forbes article panned the Charger for being RWD and “sliding around too much”. As soon as I read that, the rest of the article lost any remaining credibility.
geozinger, people with money give Forbes a lot of weight. Most people with money didn’t get to be that way by being stupid. They made wise choices and do not buy or invest in losers.
Some people don’t like CR. The key thing is to look at all the info that’s out there, from all sources, and then give each one the weight that you choose based on your wants and needs.
kenzter, there’s a lot more wrong with the Charger than just sliding around. But fanboys don’t mind putting up with it. If it works for them….., good for them.
@highdesert: Judging by some of the way some of these ‘people with money’ have been acting in the last several years, I’d hold off on calling them smart.
If your assertion is true about using the info out there based on my wants and needs, by that measure, Forbes ain’t getting it done for me. I was more of a Money magazine reader, I didn’t read Forbes on a regular basis, but have seen plenty of these top-ten lists that have less substance than Letterman’s top-ten lists. I don’t want a Rolling Stone-type of 35 page, 5,000 word article either, but I think it ruins their credibility. Too much like a sound bite.
geozinger, I didn’t say that people with money always acted ethically. More often than not people with money thrive on their greediness. And become even more successful than the financially timid.
Forbes and similar publications have a loyal following and since the rich keep on getting richer while the poor keep getting further behind, it is not unlikely that more people who are successful will follow what Forbes offers (its a proven formula for success if you have the bread) and my interpretation is that the anti-Fiatsler article will result in more people driving foreign brands than Fiatsler products.
I’ll grant ya, there’ll be some who keep a Wrangler around, but I also believe there will be more Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Lexus sold to those people than there will be 300’s and 200’s sold to them (based on just the article).
No doubt the Fiatsler fanboys will dispute that, but I’m cool with that.
I like the 300, Charger and Challenger, and that’s about it. The transformation of the Sebring to the 200 was pretty impressive, given the short time and limited resources the company had, but I still wouldn’t take one over a Fusion or an Accord.
The company’s big problem is that it still has no really strong entries in the compact and family-sedan classes. Even GM has the Cruze and Malibu.
What reviews aren’t loaded with subjective opinions? CR is actually quite thorough in their instrument testing, including a standardized test loop to measure fuel efficiency (as opposed to many reviewers who simply say “we drove it around town and got XX miles per gallon”), and they’re the only car review magazine I’ve seen that actually measures passenger & cargo room instead of relying on the manufacturers claims (which often don’t seem to follow any kind of standard).
I actually got a Caliber rental last month and expected the worse, based on CR and most every other car review site I’ve read trashing it as one of the worst cars on the market. But it actually wasn’t that bad. It reminded me of the old Ford Escort my parents used to have — compared to the Honda Civic I had at the time, the Escort handled poorly and was slow, but as point A to point B transportation with no thought of the competition, it was fine (and it lasted them many years with minimal repairs). But being adequate is not going to get Chrysler the market share they desperately need.
redrum, I actually assign more weight to something that CR publishes over what JDP and others have to say. I believe that CR does not take any money from any one for their findings whereas JDP and others derive their money from their findings.
Awww, what about the 300C refresh? Even Top Gear liked the 300C refresh!
http://www.topgear.com/uk/chrysler/300c/road-test/driven
-Filed under: Straws – grasping at.
Edit: All the chrysler popups are both irritating and ironic. Never noticed them on comments before.
It is odd that Consumer Reports chose not to test the 300 and the Grand Cherokee, arguably the most competitive vehicles from Chrysler at the moment. If the goal is to assess the progress of Chrysler, wouldn’t it make sense to test all the newest offerings?
They have tested the Grand Cherokee and actually had positive things to say about both V6 and V8 versions.
“Chrysler is on the right path, but they still have a long way to go.”
Considering where they were a year ago, their progress has been impressive. There are still some important gaps (notably a competitive “C” segment offering), but Chrysler has nothing to be ashamed of in their progress to date. Chrysler’s product line was pretty much horrible across the range two years ago, now most of their newer products are class competitive or better. CR is right to hold off on recommending these models until they have reliability information, but that doesn’t mean that the new products are bad.
Chrysler has had a lot of their debt and legacy costs wiped out by the bankruptcy, and they are helped by the competitive devaluation of the US dollar – so they have an opportunity to offer more car for the money.
Compare with Toyota, which went from #1 to #3 in the space of a year or two, and which is letting their top selling Corolla rot on the vine to the point where it can no longer be considered truly class competitive.
Maybe the Corolla is not “class competitive” anymore, but have you seen how many Toyota sells when compared to Chrysler’s variant in the segment? For what it’s worth, I’m no fan of the Corolla (I’m actually praying that my mother decides NOT to buy another one as her last car ever), but hard to argue with that kind of success.
Chrysler has a few cars that are worthy of consideration, but that’s the problem. They don’t have a strong enough line-up to be considered across the board. Having said that, I’d still not sneeze at having a Challenger R/T parked in my garage…
“Although they performed well enough, none of those three are recommended because they are too new for us to have reliability information.”
And where will they get this reliability information? From a scientific random double blind sample? No. They will get it from their subscribers. The very people they are telling to not buy these vehicles and if they do make the unwise choice to purchase one they are sure to have “problems” so they will look for anything to go wrong and put that on their survey. As Michael Karesh has said, we will not be told what those particular things are, or what the difference is between a black, half-black, white, half red, and red circle.
I doubt CR readers are any more likely to want to admit that they were stupid enough to buy a bad product than anyone else. Chances are they’ll only complain if the problems are inescapable, since each one admitted is a personal failure of judgement.
When you google car problems, it seems that people love to publicize their complaints about how XYZ company makes the worst parts or cars, and swear they will never buy from that company again.
What’s too new about the Town & Country and the Charger refresh? Pentastar V6? These cars are not my first choice, but the more refined interior isn’t likely to make the Town & Country or the Charger worse and the new V6 engine seems to be an improvement. Might also note that the Charger offers a Hemi V8 option with enough history to determine reliability.
didn’t the Pentstar V6 make the Ward’s top 10 list?
Pentastar is actually pretty amazing, but it alone cannot save the whole company. It cannot power a new Neon for one.
GM’s Northstar was heavily lauded upon its release, too… and look how swimmingly that turned out.
Very true about the Northstar – my dad had the last year of the eldorado before they came with the Northstar engine and test drove both model years and he said it would be the last Cadillac he’d buy. (((of course this was before V meant anything more than an old miniseries about aliens)))
I miss the aura of my ’72 Duster and the briefly-owned ’69 Dart
I am no great fan of CU, but I am not sure that their conclusion is so unreasonable. I am not in the market for a new car. If I were, I find some of Chrysler’s new stuff pretty appealing, and I have found a lot to like in some Chrysler products over the years. However, I would also have to think twice before laying my money down just yet.
Chrysler’s vehicles from the late Daimler and Cerberus periods had the crap cut out of their costs. Marchionne has put a lot of money where the customer sees it, but as of yet, I wonder if more money is going into the thousands lf little bits and pieces that cost customers a lot of money when the cheap stuff fails. Also, I really want to like the Pentastar 3.6. I just hope it is not another 2.7. Ditto the new transmissions coming online.
The verdict is that I love Chrysler’s new product, but this company’s multiple prior selves have disappointed a lot of people in the past with promises of quality that have not been kept. The good news is that I tend to buy older cars, so by the time they are in my sights, we will know if they are any good or not.
+1
I would like to see Chrysler succeed, partly because of nostalgia and partly out of rooting for the underdog, but reliability and long term durability still remains to be seen.
The Pentastar is possibly the best in class V6 engine right now, but there is a lot of new technology in there and it is too early to say that problems won’t crop up.
I haven’t had a Mopar for many years, but I would consider a JGC or 300 – but after a couple of years, to make sure the bugs are sorted out. If history is any guide, depreciation (further sped up by expensive fuel) will make these things bargains in the used market in a few years.
By no means is Chrysler out of the woods yet, but they have come a long way in a short time and are no longer in immediate danger. I wish them all the best.
if you want to buy a washing machine or toaster oven then refer to C/R. i’ve owned four chrysler products. 00 cherkee 116k no problems. 03 grand cherokee 102k no problems. 04 sebring convert. daughters current car. 2.7 v6 103k no problems 2.7 runs great. current driver 05 grand cherokee 3.7 v6 71k new water pump at 1300mi. covered under warranty. other than that no problems. i’d buy another chrysler product in a haertbeat !
The “CR is for appliances only” schtick is tired and was never true. CR employs car experts to test cars, not the same folks that test the appliances so this criticism is nonsensical. CR does a fine job or reviewing automobiles, certainly better than the recent buff books. You certainly are more assured of a biased free review because of there refusal to accept any sponsorship money.
Whoa, put the CU Koo-Aid down.
TTAC has done a series of stories on why the reviews at CR should be taken with a grain of salt – and their reliability ratings taken with several grains of salt, and a shot of tequila.
I think True Delta and heir Michael does a vastly better, unvarnished job. Have we already forgotten CU BS rollover tests?
Or how about CU rubber stamping “recommended” on the 2008 Camry and 2008 Tundra at their release, and then having to throw that rubber stamp in the trash can in 2009 when both vehicles came back, “below average,” in their owner survey (just brought up as a point of data, not meant as a bash on Toyota).
I put more weight into real owner reviews than the surveys of CU or JDP. Personally I think when people trot out CU or JDP to make a point, it is because their position is weak.
With that said, I agree that Chrysler has a long way to go and their product line up is largely uncompetitive. However, I don’t need a team or researchers at a dead tree publication to spend money to tell me that.
Owner reviews are probably the worst source out there when looking for unbiased reviews. Owners are eager to justify their “smart” purchase by defending it with hyperbolic praise or have an axe to grind because they feel they got burned. It is rare to see an unbiased or even neutral owner review of anything. Most of the time these reviews are written just days or weeks after the purchase, hardly enough time to form a thorough opinion or judge any dependability.
I use and contribute to True Delta, but frankly the website and data presentation are rubbish and make it almost useless. It’s a wash as far as quality of data as far as I am concerned.
I don’t use CR as the end all be all and don’t drink the kool-aid. CR is just another tool that consumers can use and as flawed as it may be, is one of the better ones we have right now.
Ubermensh, I think you are wrong about car owners “wanting to justify their smart purchase.” I participate in the annual CU survey and report the good and bad of my purchases, and based on the many, many reliability “black dots” in their annual auto issue many others do the same.
I think the typical CU subscriber is definitely an analytical, anal type (guilty as charged) that wants others to have good data about purchases; that is why they subscribe in the first place. Those who want purchase validation subscribe to Motor Trend.
I put more weight into real owner reviews
Have you actually read user reviews at Edmunds.com or any other automotive sites? They’re loaded with “just bought this car, love it, 5 stars” reviews or “Have taken this car to the dealership 5x for rattling they can’t fix, will never buy a (insert make) car again, 1 star”. You can find a more useful information by perusing owner forums, but even then most feedback is overwhelmingly positive no matter what the car, even if they have a lot of reliability issues.
Toad,
I think we agree more than we disagree. CR reliability is anonymous and doesn’t really do the owner a diservice to be honest(other than resale value which I doubt many owners would consider). I was talking about the owner reviews on sites like Edmunds, Epinons, etc… that are the solid 5 star or 1 star reviews like redrum talks about. What CR and TD do (simply asking if you had a repair) is very different from the review sites where people just want to spout off nonsense about what an awesome car they were so smart to buy / horrible car they were tricked into by evil car company X.
Don’t forget the radically different recomendations on the Diamond Star cars even though they were all built at teh same plant. Just because a publication doesn’t accept ad money doesn’t mean they don’t have any bias. And after reading the review on vacuum cleaners I don’t think they should be taken seriously when testing appliances either (where they said a Dyson doesn’t have much suction). In regards to trusting the manufactures claims of space I seem to recall Car and Driver using cases of beer to measure cargo volume.
When our 2000 Durango finally gets worn out (160k trouble free miles now) we will probably get a new one with the V6.
Flipper35,
I don’t believe that CR said the Dyson “didn’t have much suction” in fact a Dyson model scored in the top 4 and was recommended. Did you do your own independent testing of vaccums to determine that the Dyson did in fact have better suction?
I dunno, I kind of like the Charger. How many other options do you have for a big 4 door with a V8 and RWD without going to the Eurobox cruisers? Then again, how many non-enthusiasts actually care about that…
Given how strong the used car market is for G8 GTs and GXPs I would say there is still a demand for RWD V8 powered gas gulping cars; ironically people want defunct Pontiacs and are willing to pay a premium to get them.
A 2008 G8 GT sold for around $29K in 2008 – in a few months they will four model years old; good luck finding a G8 GT (stress V8 GT) that isn’t a salvage title for under $20K, or for under $22K for that matter. Auction pricing for 2009 are over $23K, many dealers are asking upwards of $26K to $27K for 09 GTs, and around $30K to $35K for a GXP depending on miles.
Stupidest thing GM ever did finally they get a good car from Holden then they shut the Pontiac brand down Ford have a really good car in the Falcon but are tooo stupid to build it LHD for the US market Both these are light years ahead of Fiatslers cars in drivability.
I’s wait for when The Charger receives a new transmission, and ditches the old Mercedes unit. I think the new transmission comes out next year, hopefully a manual will finally be offered, check at allpar.com I think the pentastar v6 and the new transmission will make a good car.
Living in the Detroit metro area, I meet a lot of loyal American buyers who never had problems with their vehicles. However, when pressed, you learn that there are issues they have not exposed or problems they have learned to live with. I have owned domestic cars over the years, as well as Japanese cars, and the Japanese cars were always more reliable. My 2001 Accord (132K) gets little maintenance/attention yet friends and family think it drives much newer. Also, look around at older vehicles to see how they are holding up. I see very few daily driver GM’s or Chrysler’s (except for dinosaur classics) that look in good shape.
I’m sorry, but I still question long-term reliability of domestics autos. I need transportation I can depend on to get myself to work and my family to wherever they need without any drama.
Many domestic buyers have just never experienced a car that really doesn’t have problems, so they can only compare to the domestic they replaced. I have a friend who used to defend his PT Cruiser with a vengence, but even that didn’t save him from it needing a head gasket at 100K miles. He bought the PT Cruiser as a runabout to use while his high mileage track toy is upgraded and maintained, but the PT Cruiser has been having as much down time as the sports car, so he winds up renting. My neighbor has a Magnum with a Hemi that he uses as a surf wagon. He likes the power. He likes the room for his boards. He tolerates the stuff that doesn’t work, the overall looseness with 60,000 miles, and the service visits.
My co-workers 2008 Accord wouldn’t start this morning. My 2004 Chevy truck did. Isn’t anecdotal evidence great?!?
I understand that condescending to “dumbestic” owners on the issue of reliability has long been a fringe benefit of Toyhonda ownership, but your implied characterization of foreign cars as being “without problems” is really quite absurd. Every car develops issues eventually, regardless of brand affiliation or country of manufacture. As kenzter pointed out, anyone can toss out an anecdotal example of one car that was either Swiss-watch reliable or a horrible lemon.
I have a Subaru Legacy Wagon bought new an serviced religiously by the book.
I have had to replace the transmission, centre diff, head gaskets, and a wheel bearing over the last three years since the car has been out of warranty.
The car is mostly highway driven – the original brakes outlasted the transmission, which went at ~110,000 km (68 k miles).
I still think it is a great car, because it is a sensibly sized wagon with a manual transmission and a superb AWD system – not because I think it is particularly reliable. I’m hoping I can get another two or three years out of it now that everything is sorted out, and by that time I will find something that appeals to me as a replacement.
I realize that this is anecdotal evidence, but not all imports are bombproof, and not all domestics are unreliable. There seems to be a fair bit of random luck when it comes to car repairs. People’s perceptions of brands comes from their own personal brand experience as much as anything.
@Almost Jake: I have the opposite problem. Many of my friends and acquaintances know I’m a car guy and some will hold back talking about their issues with their cars around me, and others will not. When you really get down to the truth of the matter, cars are just cars.
I question the long term reliability of any car. My brother in law and I have worked the service lanes and after comparing notes, have found that some of these sterling reputations aren’t. It’s really a matter of pride for some folks, whether they chose the best car they could for their money. Or if they thought they were mislead and chose poorly.
Sites like True Delta have shown us the chances of getting a lemon are statistically tiny these days. If you keep after your equipment, hopefully you will be rewarded for it.
@Penguinboy owned a Subaru, bought new, garage kept, dealer serviced, by the book – steaming pile of crap. Car lived at the damn shop, we got rid of it after 44K and when it started leaving puddles of oil in the garage. Steaming pile of crap.
See – my proof that all Japanese cars are steaming pile of crap. Now German cars are the best – I have proof of that too. ;-)
YMMV — this dude I know, people I know, my family owned, I had, doesn’t mean crap. The reality today is that almost any 2011 car purchased will go 150K miles and 7 years easy without any real problems beyond a TSB or two and maybe a recall notice during its time in someone’s garage. The margin between the most reliable car and the biggest steaming pile of crap is pretty narrow, there are statistical outliers on both sides.
@Holden: Owned 2 Subaru Outbacks. Car #1: 1998 wagon bought at 147k and sold at 214k. Most costly repair was a knock sensor. Otherwise it was consumables like brakes and tires.
Car #2: 2000 sedan bought with 109k. Still own with 132k. So far the biggest fault has been a couple lights going out in the gauge cluster. Subarus have been very good to me.
Sergio with help from some so-called automotive reviewers were praising these “improved” Chrysler/fiat re-freshened models, all a dog an pony show with no substance. The bread and butter segment, midsize family sedan, has still no real competition from Chrysler. Period.
The TTAC version of this story today sure has a different feel than the Autoblog version of this story today. The headlines give a hint:
TTAC Headline: CR takes Chrysler for a Ride, Returns Unimpressed
Autoblog Headline: Chrysler finally gets a compliment from Consumer Reports
The “CR is for appliances only” schtick is tired and was never true.
Amen brother! Name any other non-profit or even for-profit firm that dedicates the budget CR does to testing automobiles? *crickets* Bueller?
That CR idea of auto as appliance or different perceptions of sporty means little….but their mountains of quantitative data speaks volumes. They are but one source (albeit a huge one for me) of what to expect from your major purchase; Karesh and TrueDelta is another; I also enjoy reading Edmund’s long-term testing blog.
To dismiss their opinion easily is disingenuous…call me when you gather responses from hundreds of thousands of current owners on their experiences, as well as set up a testing facility and thorough process as they maintain in Connecticut. Until then, sit down.
And while I’m cheering wildly for Chrysler to make it, due to their 30+ years of making shit products I will in no way spend my hard-earned money on their products. It’s going to take several vehicle generations with reliability matching Toyota and Honda for me to even consider them.
And before you say “But Toyota and Honda aren’t what they used to be”, perhaps….but their resale says otherwise, which tells me their owners continue to come back.
Car Reviewers are narcissists who drive and write reviews simply to make money and have their work praised. I KNOW CAUSE I AM ONE. Thing is, the only thing that matters…THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS… is what people are willing to sign a check for each month for their finance period. Sales figures are all that matters. I don’t give a damn what they say – Chryslers new products are AWESOME.
Since most of Chrysler’s products aren’t selling well, doesn’t that mean they’re NOT awesome?
“The market has spoken.” – Stephen Colbert
Nice one redrum. I don’t think bigtruckseries thought out his statement too much before he posted it as he has a wee bit of egg on his face.
In his defense it bears repeating that many great products get ignored in the market and lots of turds sell like hot cakes. However, in the case of Chrysler, I think the market has it right this time.
JEEP, DODGE and Chrysler 300’s aren’t selling?
STOP READING “HYUNDAI NEWS WEEKLY” BUDDY.
Chrysler sales are way up – in case you don’t read the news.
“Car Reviewers are narcissists who drive and write reviews simply to make money and have their work praised. I KNOW CAUSE I AM ONE.”
…for Epinions.
Really?
and Youtube!!!
Chrysler sales are way up – in case you don’t read the news.
I’ve always thought ChryslerCo should wear their bad CR ratings like a badge of honor.
They could do stuff like show a Charger SRT rumble past an Avalon parked at Golden Corral for the early bird special, a Nitro out-towing a Munaro, or creating a Jeep Wrangler “ZERO” which would earn a “perfect 0” on a CR road test.
If they can’t win converts they could at least rally the troops.
Fine, but you assuming that most potential Chrysler buyers don’t give a lick about CR ratings. Is that a gamble they would be willing to take?
There’s no question that Chrysler (and GM, for that matter) has managed to dig themselves into a very deep hole over the years. That makes them an easy target for anyone with even a modicum of car knowledge to pile on, whether it’s deserved or not. Hell, the Jeep Wrangler consistantly ranks at the very bottom of any vehicle ranking (well, except those focused exclusively on off-road ability).
And yet, the built-in-Toledo Jeep Wrangler is one of Chrysler’s few bright spots, staying a best seller, year after year, regardless of how bad it might actually be for day-to-day driving. Just goes to show that a manufacturer can get away with a lot if they just have the right marketing.
The Wrangler is a purpose built off roader – almost unique in the market today. If someone wants this sort of vehicle, it compares quite well – see Pete Zaitcev’s comments above. This isn’t just marketing, it is about choosing the right tool for the job.
Just because the Wrangler rates poorly on “day-to-day driving” does not mean it is a bad vehicle, just that it is optimized for something else. Criticizing the Wrangler for poor on road performance is like complaining about lack of luggage space in a Porsche or Corvette.
In my experience CR only cares about two things: reliability and trade-in-value. We all know that Chrysler’s reliability has been bad for along time, so I’ll give that to CR. Trade-in-value or true-cost-to-own or whatever they want to call it is a horrible way to evaluate a vehicle. If you are buying a car thinking its a good long-term financial investment, perhaps you should look into mortgage default swaps instead.
Then you haven’t had much experience with CR. They take in consideration the quality of the car, cost to own, as well as reliability before they recommend a model. Cars are expensive, shouldn’t a smart consumer have some information to try to lower the cost? When has CR ever said a car is a good investment? CR is the one always recommend buyers buy a reliable used car which is a religion to most TTACers. Most car buyers really don’t car that much about handling, dynamics, etc… they are buying a car because they have to.
Bag on CR for their methodology, past foibles, what have you, but don’t trot out straw men to make a point.
Trade-in value is an issue if you lease or like to trade fairly frequently. Not sure why you think this is a bad metric for evaluating cars.
Trade in value is important for those who change cars frequently.
For those of us who keep cars for the long haul, trade in value is a good way to decide whether to buy new or used. Good cars with poor resale value great deals when bought used and kept for the long run.
Unless I`ve been sleeping for the last 20 years…the LARGE percentage of car buyers are NOT going to pay the cost to subscribe to CR before they purchase a car.CR has always been an..how do I put this…place for :people who subscribe to it and buy upon the magazines reviews.
Whew,got past that part pretty smoothly,you think?
NOW LETS TALK REAL WORLD!
They are a struggling middle class family(or what left of our middle class)and the beater has finally died…..the used car market is shit(thanks,cash for clunkers)so now we need..and this a no bullshit NEED a new car.
Where you gonna go:CHRYSLER
Why?
The cars look great, the warranty is good and you can get “bought”
Every time I see a new Chrysler product reviewed I think about the ‘average’ car buyer…the one that just pisses the hell off the CR and Elitist buyers.
This is America.
This is the way it is…REAL LIFE
Give me a NEW car at a with an affordable payment!
That I can stand to look at!
This is what Chrysler does best!
I think they will be around for a long time.
So CR subscribers are rich elitists and Chrysler buyers are poor. Does that about sum up your screed?
You just don’t get.
I UNDERSTAND…..
The magazine costs $26 a year, and if all you want is the car buying guide issue, you can usually find that on the magazine rack at the grocery store for $5 or so.
The “average” car buyer tends to buy something close to CR’s recommendations, even if they didn’t bother doing the research. In the midsize class, the Camry sells, the Sonata sells, the 200/Avenger does not.
Having spent many years working as a Service Advisor at Chrysler, I would not buy one of their cars. I cannot begin to think how many times I have heard them say, “Our new stuff is way better, so buy now!” only to see that it was just a awful as the old stuff.
Having said that, whomever wants to buy one, to each his own!
and I have for”years” been a “Service Adviser” at MB.
With the same complaints…
You can shine S**t, but it’s still s**t.
I think CR’s bias was pretty well proven by the discrepancies between the Corolla / Prizm and the Mitsubishi / Chrycos.