Yesterday, your humble author went back to the proverbial old school for a heartfelt piece on why Buick must die. It gave me no pleasure to write it; I can still remember being five years old and waiting with anticipation for my father to bring home his new steel-grey 1977 LeSabre sedan. That was an American-made luxury sedan to compete heads-up with anything the world could offer, which no doubt explains why the Volvo that sat next to it in the garage found its way to the classifieds shortly afterwards.
There is nothing I would rather see than the resurrection of a revitalized Buick taking the fight to Lexus with a top-notch lineup of cars and crossovers that are built and designed — scratch that, I would probably settle for built or designed at this point! — in the United States. That’s why I handed out that tough love to the Tri-shield yesterday.
It would have been nice if Buick PR had responded by sending me some off-the-record advance notice of a new world-class luxury car or truck. I suppose it was naive of me to even think there might be such a thing in the pipeline. Rather, my boss received a list of complaints from Buick’s brand communications manager, Stu Fowle. He believes the article is incorrect on several points. In the interest of promoting further informed discussion about Buick’s current woes, I’ve listed his complaints after the jump, along with my responses.
Buick’s objections, via Fowle, are in italics, my responses are in bold.
No fresh faces like GMC has? The newest and broadest lineup we’ve ever had, about 2 years or newer
Nowhere in the text does it say Buick does not have “fresh faces” like GMC has. It states that GMC has “fresh faces and shiny grilles.” This is a reflection of GMC’s strong and customer desire-driven lineup. I’m afraid you’re reading something into the text that does not exist.
Regal sedan no one buys? Correct, we no longer sell a Regal sedan. We sell a sportback and wagon, both of which are brand new
If you’re not selling luxury sedans anymore, you might want to change the webpage for your Regal, which is http://www.buick.com/sedans/regal-gs-luxury-sedan. (Here’s an archived link in case that changes today.)
4800 pound Enclave with no market? That weight is off by 400 pounds and the Enclave in February had about 50 percent more sales than CX-9, XC90, Q7
In that case, you’ll want to change your own website which lists the FWD Enclave at 4,724 pounds. (Here’s the archive link for reference after you fix that.) As far as sales of the Enclave versus the “competition”… you’ve picked an obscure Mazda, a Volvo sold through a dealer network a fraction the size of Buick’s, and an Audi that starts ten grand above the Enclave then rockets up to nearly six figures. Wouldn’t it be more relevant to point out that the GMC Acadia outsells the Enclave by more than three to one? How about comparing it to the Chevrolet Traverse, which outsells it almost four to one? Or would it be more relevant to point out that the Enclave is third from the bottom on February’s segment sales list, taking a thorough beating from vehicles as diverse as the VW Atlas, the Nissan Murano, and the Dodge Durango?
“Removing the imports” from the lineup is nonsensical just to make a comparison work. The HR-V used as a point of comparison sells similarly to the Encore in an apples-to-apples segment compare and it should be noted that it’s also an import, built in Mexico.
I think it’s VERY relevant that Buick relies on Chinese and Korean vehicles to make its unimpressive sales numbers. I think it is VERY relevant that Buick, a brand that exists today because of the full faith and credit of the United States government, is a major importer of Chinese-built vehicles. Furthermore, if you don’t see the difference between the HR-V’s supply chain and the Encore’s, you need to study up on what your own employer does to design, engineer, and build vehicles.
There’s a claim that we’ve had “Five dismal years” but they’ve all been growth years until we took a small drop in 2017.
I think this is a reasonable objection. Buick sales are certainly up from where they were a decade ago. However, I believe if you read the article with attention you will see that the phrase is “a few dismal years,” and that it comes in the context of Buick’s fall from its previous grace. Still, insofar as the past few years were, on the average, no more dismal than the few years before it, let’s award the point to you.
Why are we comparing the price of our top trim LaCrosse Avenir to versus a base ES? A base LaCrosse costs $9,000 less than the ES (and the Avenir costs about $6,000 more, not $9,000)
The ES350 starts at $38,950. The cheapest V6 LaCrosse starts at $34,595. The Avenir starts at $45,795. Looks like neither of us have our figures quite right, but that’s not your central point. You suggest that it is unfair to compare the ES to the Avenir. My suggestion in response is that you will be lucky to match the real-world transaction prices of the base ES with your Avenir. The fact that you don’t see the prestige and perception gap between the two products does not bode well for Buick’s ability to accurately position and market its vehicles.
[Image: General Motors]
No Buick press cars for you for 7 years!
Ahhh, the subtle ways of corporate pressure.
Sounds like bullying to me.
The butthurt is strong with GM corporate.
Visit other automotive sites and see the corporate blog-plants of the auto industry offer their wildly optimistic views of their own products as if their pasts were something to be proud of.
Whenever any site starts to push articles on off-the-wall brands that are not mainstream or in demand, you know there is corporate money behind it, as an incentive.
Then mix in the factory marketing plants, and voila, faux automotive news.
Been this way since the invention of the wheel.
It’s strange that executives get indignant with car enthusiasts. It’s one thing to battle the unwashed masses, but thoughtful car people are not a manufacturers enemy. While the headline of the original article may have skewed towards click-bait, the content was basically a list of postulates and empirical observations arranged into contrarian counterpoint.
Fowle seems to think he’s dealing with a seditious, car-burning ELF neophyte at the New York Times.
TW5,
I have to agree with Jack on this one. Buick is just a Holden or Opel, it’s not a prestigious brand that some seem to peddle around here.
I think Buick need to sit back and look at what they are selling, or better still not selling.
Buick is value adding in the worst possible way. The vehicles Buick is using are not great vehicles, they are bargain buckets dolled up.
I think this is what is wrong with the “US” method of creating prestige and luxury vehicles. It just isn’t the best way, that’s why the Germans and Asians are doing a better job a vehicle manufacture/selling. Just add this nail in the coffin regarding US vehicle manufacturing.
The definition of Buick is irrelevant. What matters is Buick’s strategic positioning, and the path taken to reach its destination.
It can’t survive as a Chinese car company. When the Chinese find out Americans don’t view Buick favorably, and they discover we don’t like Chinese control of a legacy nameplate, it will put pressure on the market in China. That’s why Fowle was triggered by the original article. Buick can’t die in America.
So Buick needs to listen to the American market regarding product decisions, and then evaluate the best segments for the brand. It can’t compete with AMG. It can easily compete with the Japanese.
All they have to do is stop burning money in an altar fire built to the techno-god of our dystopian future, and focus on selecting reliable powertrains and pushing Avenir forward.
TW5 – This, totally. I wish I could buy a Buick, as there is a Buick dealer close to me that is among the best in the business. However, I cant think of a single Buick I would want to test drive let alone buy.
I wouldnt touch the Envision with a 10-foot pole on account of its origin, nor would I touch any other car that is assembled entirely by a nation that owns 3 trillion of our debt – and also happens to be an enemy of the US.
The Enclave was cool when it was released, but its now a somewhat dated jellybean with little appeal and no real towing capacity.
The Encore fits a niche – older ladies who want a small SUV that is easy to ingress and egress – but does not have appeal otherwise.
As for the remainder Regal and Lacrosse, almost no one is buying sedans anymore, and those that do are real sticklers for quality. Buick needs to essentially build a better Lexus for less than the cost of a Lexus in order to capture more sedan sales.
All of this is fixable, which is the silver lining.
SSJeep,
excuse me, but “The Enclave was cool?”
The Enclave was never cool, especially when compared to a Grand Cherokee. Not even when compared to a Range Rover.
Maybe cool when compared to an Explorer?
At one time I had looked at an Enclave but ended up buying a Grand Cherokee for my wife instead.
No comparison! Grand Cherokee is better AND it still is cool today.
“I would probably settle for built or designed at this point! — in the United States”
…and presumably, if not built in the US, then at least not built in China.
“I would probably settle for built or designed at this point! — in the United States”
…and presumably, if not built in the US, then at least not built in China.
Best thing out of this is that Buick is watching and engaged.
Very good point.
But so much for “The Truth About Cars.”
They say Love Hurts.
But it looks like The Truth hurts even more.
Then again, even bad press is better than no press at all.
@01 Deville, +1
Stu Fowle, please read my suggestions and Freed’s suggestions about selling truly PREMIUM vehicles and not cloth seat loss leaders.
Hey, cloth is the new leather! So premium and exclusive, and comes with an exclusive “won’t burn your legs when it’s been sitting in the July sun for five hours” feature.
They may be watching, but engaged? The denial of reality that existed within GM pre-bk is still there.
It’s a shame but not altogether surprising.
I am on the lookout for another 2008 to 2011 Buick Lucerne CXS or Super to transform into my third new-generation WILDCAT.
Buick needs to bring back some of the classic names!
Riviera – yes, a two door, like Mercedes-Benz sells . . .
Roadmaster – I think Jay Leno agrees on this one . . .
Wildcat – otherwise I drive the only new ones! . . .
Lately I have found more CXS models than Supers so I will have to exchange the fishy grille from the 2008 with the proper 2010 – 2011 grille. It will fit just fine. . .
Not really. I would hope that the folks at Buick would know TTAC’s history and respectfully decline.
I’m not a PR expert by any means, but responding to an article like this sets a precedent that every mention will need to be answered. Which is a task I would not wish on my worst enemy. It wouldn’t matter what you said, there are people who will do nothing but argue every point to absurdity. One can’t win those arguments. If they were smart, they’d just go back to letting the commentary fly and carry on as normal.
Cute how he muddies the water on the definition of “import”. Maybe next he can challenge the definition of “is”?
Thinking about all those Daewoos, Opels, and PRC sourced cars in GM’s lineup makes me want to sing.
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day, so let’s start giving
It’s 2018. The days of easy import vs domestic distinctions are long gone. None of the Detroit 3 sell a full lineup of US designed and built vehicles. They all sell vehicles designed and sourced from around the world. And so do the “import” brands. So it really doesn’t bother me that GM has Chinese built or Korean built cars in the Buick lineup.
Most of Toyota’s US offerings are designed for USDM and/or the North American market (where they are designed exactly I cannot so). Imports are just that, models designed for, built, or sold in other markets. GM sourcing from Asia and Europe indicates it has no desire to engineer proper offerings in those segments (in GM’s case it is also a cost saving measure by utilizing slack capacity at other plants). Ford more or less admits to this in new Hackett strategy. Chrysler simply gave up and pulled out of segments it cannot win. All three have one thing in commmon: their midsize to small offerings are not designed or primarily intended for USDM.
“In terms of product strategy, the focus is clearly on SUVs, trucks and electric cars. Ford will reallocate $7 billion that had been earmarked for traditional passenger car models to focus on these growing segments. The automaker will also speed up the development of vehicles by around 20 percent via new tools such as virtual reality and big data.”
motorauthority.com/news/1113073_fords-new-strategy-focus-shifts-to-suvs-trucks-and-evs
The Toyota Venza is designed in the U.S. Wvery other Toyota/Lexus product is designed in Japan.
Toyota operates design studios in the US and Europe as well as Japan. Their goal is to develop product for the specific market they are located in. I can’t find a good link on which current model is designed where, but my point is Toyota builds to its market tastes, GM is not by importing product not intended for USDM.
“In 1973, Toyota established Calty Design Research, Inc. (Calty) in El Segundo, California, as the first U.S. design facility owned by a Japanese automaker, to better understand the needs and tastes of American consumers.
In 1978, Calty was moved to a new building in Newport Beach, where it continued its design development activities, creating many popular designs, including the second-generation Celica, the first-generation Estima (called the Previa in the U.S.), and the third-generation Soarer (called the Lexus SC 400 in the U.S.). Calty’s design building and other facilities were remodeled in 1991 to enhance both the company’s advanced design-development work and its interior and color design R&D work.
Then in 2004, with the goal of developing truly locally designed and produced vehicles in North America, Toyota established a Calty studio next to the Toyota Technical Center in Ann Arbor, Michigan.”
http://www.toyota-global.com/company/history_of_toyota/
75years/data/automotive_business/
products_technology/technology_development/design/details_window.html
https://www.toyota-europe.com/world-of-toyota/feel/operations/made-in-europe/designing
Not. Even. Close.
In fact, most of the Toyota X-platform vehicles are designed exclusively in and for, and built exclusively in, the US, with some versions exported from the US to other markets, or their role filled in those other markets by a related but modified locally made model.
Toyota is good at business. Designing one-size-fits-all global models, and building in a single, central, high labor plant to then pay huge money to export around the world is not good business.
Yes, the import issue is the primary lingering doubt I have about Buick. If they continue to bow to Beijing, they have nothing to offer me. The Chinese market is keeping GM alive, but it’s the US taxpayer that sustained Buick as we know it today.
Using foreign divisions to design and import cars is okay, but offshoring a large percentage of the lineup is a bit dicey.
Last summer, after my car was bumped by another vehicle, I had to take the car to one of the Buick dealers in Toledo for an estimate for Nationwide Insurance purposes. (This dealer is one of several in the so-called “Central Avenue Strip.”) The dealer principal has owned the dealer since heaven-knows-when, and his wife took over the dealership when he passed.
I so wanted to ask ANYONE working there how in heaven’s name, after the “bailout” we gave them, how they felt about having the audacity to peddle those shiny new Envisions from China, but instead, I just took a few pictures of the cars (including a VIN shot, with the “L” clearly visible), and left.
But you drive an Accord?
Question for the Lexus fanboys – Does a cloth seat no heated seat ES350 still exist as a NEW 2018 vehicle?
Because the BASE trim level “1” Lacrosse is an embarrassment and you have to step up to the Preferred trim level (and almost $40K) to get heated seats in a Lacrosse.
Can’t you get heated seats in a base Kia Soul or a Corolla? Or are those packages you have to get that push the price into the 20’s?
“Leather” and heated seats were standard on a $18k Sonic LTZ circa 2011.
Speaking of good features, let me say this as a Buick fanboy that likes his German-made Regal:
The fact that Toyota is putting their automatic breaking features on their base Corolla say two things:
* Toyota knows their customers are crappy drivers
* Toyota actually cares about safety
Buick… step up to the plate. I shouldn’t have to buy the top trim to not die a horrible death by running into someone.
“Automatic breaking”
Otherwise known as planned obsolescence.
My Regal has Brembo Breaks. Could stop in less distance than most if not all Toyota/Lexus products. Tells me they they aren’t serious about safety. They are just using it as a gimmick to sell cars.
Automatic braking isn’t for people who hit their brakes. It’s for people who aren’t paying attention. If you’re not paying attention, a Toyota with cheapo pads will stop in less distance (by automatic braking), than your Brembo-padded Buick. Most rear-endings aren’t caused by cheap pads, they’re caused by inattentiveness.
Toyota offers a auto brake system that doesn’t work.
https://youtu.be/6mzRiWO-ktU
It must be a cheap system compared to Subaru’s.
I wouldn’t mind paying for auto braking but until the insurance companies give a break on their premiums for it, I’m not paying extra to have these safety features not work.
rentonben
Not everybody wants those features.
Base ES comes with non-heated vinyl seats; the Luxury package (leather, heated and ventilated seats, power steering wheel, keyless entry, etc.) is basically a grab bag of everything that SHOULD be standard, but then again it only costs another $1,700 all-in. You do get radar cruise control/auto-braking standard on all ES’, something GM likes to limit to top trim levels.
I think it’s been a long time since a cloth seat ES was available, although at least in Canada, you could get an RX with unheated cloth seats through the last generation.
The base ES350 seat material is leatherette. The “Premier Package” comes with heated and cooled seats, and I doubt that you can find an ES350 on a dealer lot anywhere that doesn’t have it. The “Luxury Package” adds leather and I expect it’s on most of the cars.
So Buick executives read TTAC and there still is no 3800 Series IV in the works?
Knowing this guy and how he does business, it’s far more common for him to *write* the auto press (via Gold-standard proxies) than it is for him to *read* it.
TTAC is read at the RenCen (and at Ford’s and Chrysler’s headquarters as well). We’ve had GM executives like Mark Ruess comment here.
However, I think the biggest reason why GM reached out to react is that Jack’s post got huge traffic. The post was linked to by Glenn Reynolds at Instapundit, whose links have been known to generate enough traffic to crash smaller sites.
Buick has no presence in America. Ask anyone if they know people that drive Camrys, Accords, Altimas, even Optimas or Sonatas or if they see them on streets and highways here in the south (Atlanta and Georgia). Answer is yes to all those. Ask if they see Regals, or Lacrosses, and you get a blank face.
Buick as a brand only matters for China. The best that can happen to it is a Lenovo type takeover. Think IBM Thinkpad. When IBM sold its laptop business to Chinese, and now Lenovo is taking over the world. They make good laptops. Chinese may be able to perfect Buick and then sell it back to us.
No different than what they are doing with some other brands they took over from America.
GM should stick to trucks and SUVs, and then a few sporty cars, and import their car business from newly owned Chinese company they sold their Buick brand to.
Different vehicles sell better in different parts of the country. I do see a good number of Buicks in my area.
Not so many pickups.
Not many pickups in my suburb either. Mostly Enclaves/Acadia/Traverae and Escalades/Yukon for suvs.
I, too, am in the Atlanta area and I see at least fairly new Buicks on the streets all the time. I can’t say that they’re as common as a Honda Civic, but they’re out there.
In a completely unscientific observation, I think I see a pretty healthy mix of brands when I’m in traffic. YMMV.
Do we have a firm answer on what happens to the new Regal and parts availability? Or is it going to be yet another Saab orphan story where parts are available on eBay on the PSA company store?
Still mechanically related to the Malibu and Lacrosse so GM has no reason to stop making parts for it as far as I know.
It’s still GM’s car on a GM platform using GM components found on many other GM cars. PSA just has an agreement to continue building it until they are ready for the next generation Invision on their own platform using their own components.
Future parts availability shouldn’t be any more of an issue than any other out of production car, as I would assume GM would still continue supporting their car.
GM also has a supply chain in China that can get us Opel/PSA Regal parts.
Some of the fun of owning a Buick is day-dreaming about the wonky Chicom upgrades at Alibaba. Gold plated dash? Embroidered filigree seat covers? It’s yours!
This response does speak to one important aspect of this all. For better or worse, there are hundreds if not thousands of people dependent on the success of each brand, so takedowns have to come from a place of objectivity and compassion to some degree. I’m sure there are a lot of folks behind every Buick that work very hard at what they do.
Dude, have you ever managed a P&L?
Feelings are more important than facts!
“Feelings are more important than facts!”
Much, much irony.
“Regal sedan no one buys? Correct, we no longer sell a Regal sedan. We sell a sportback and wagon, both of which are brand new”
This was the argument being made by a representative of the company, presumably an adult? A childish quibble over form factor to divert from the core argument of poor sales performance?
Although if the 1977 LeSabre was cream of the automotive crop, I’m very grateful to be driving in 2018.
Not necessarily. In my neck of the woods, the marketing department is staffed by 12 year olds.
My biggest take away from that statement was that they actually called the TourX a wagon!
Its too early to slam the new Regals for poor sales. They just came out.
Ha! Just came out? That’s funny because I was in a Buick GMC dealership in August trying to test drive the new TourX and was told they were coming in a couple of weeks but that I could order one. Come October, the same story. If you check your local dealers inventory you might only see a few available. What’s really going to kill the sales of the latest Regal are the supply issues.
@Zamir – ding ding.
My Buick dealers Regal inventory consists of a leftover 2017 sedan (non-GS) fairly loaded with AWD and ONE Sportback.
That’s it.
I can’t buy a GS or a Tour X if you don’t have one.
My local Buick house has no Regals or LaCrosses in inventory. That’s ZERO. It’s all about the CUVs (and they actually have one Cascada). This is in a big city too.
They even pulled the quiet tires out of the TourX to make them available, and I’ve still only seen pictures of them.
Thr Sportback came to dealerships right after Xmas and TourX came last month on the east coast. They essentially hit the dealerahips right after journalist got invited to drive them.
This is true, but the outgoing model sold poorly and the new one occupies the same market position. Why is it expected to do any better when the new LaCrosse hasn’t?
Lacrosse sales really took a hit when the new Enclave arived. They have recovered somewhat since.
He knows he’ll be unemployed soon; he’s already unemployable with that attitude.
If buick is reading this
I’m so glad we saved you from bankruptcy so you could assume the final form of the boomer and outsource car manufacturing to china
Way to go
Oh and also, would it kill you to actually design a car anymore? You know, one with coherent sheetmetal like you used to.
They did design such a car. It was called the Avista, and it was awesome. They just refused to build it.
Call me an old man if you want, I’d drive a 6.2 Avista Wildcat with pride.
The Enclave, Lacrosse and Envision were all designed in the U.S.
They weren’t designed anywhere; the clay was extruded, allowed to sag a little, and then they blindfolded some guy from accounting and had him reach into a bin of overwrought styling cues and pin them onto the model.
“I’m so glad we saved you from bankruptcy so you could assume the final form of the boomer and outsource car manufacturing to china”
IBx1 with the kill shot.
Message to Buick: no Roadmaster, no care.
Seems like a quick answer to that is to take a top trim Suburban, slap a Roadmaster CXL badge on that thing and watch the sales figures skyrocket.
Everybody else at GM has a GMT-K2XX variant, why not Buick?
I was thinking along those lines actually.
Take a Suburban, LOWER it, and give it chrome bumpers. Get some crome on the sides.
Make windshield chrome if possible.
Most importantly, lots of chrome.
Engine should be the 6.2l.
Dual exhausts with…wait for it…chrome tips.
Did we just create a hit vehicle? Damn straight we did.
Portholes.
You forgot the portholes.
No wood, no sale.
They could shape one porthole like a snail on the turbocharged models.
Those are speedholes, the make the car go faster. (/s)
Principal, while I’ve owned a couple of Lexuses (Lexi?) in the past, it had been a while since I visited their site. Since my local dealer is 4 miles away, I probably should have gone over to the dealership to see what the current version of “package stuffing” is happening with the inventory.
First glance at the site – damned if it hardly has any personal styling cues beyond the big-mouth Camry. Sorry, that’s sickening to me. I owned an ES350 and LS 460, and both cars at the time actually seemed to have some unique styling cues. Well, that ship has sailed.
So you need to drop $3500 if you want real leather, about $1500 for the 2 packages that at least have perforated “pleather”. I can’t find the version you’re referring to on my local site based on what they are serving up on my web page. Anyway, even if I could find one, the cost for entry is basically $40k.
When I tried to max out a Camry, I was at $36k. There’s cash on the hood for both cars, yup, they would give me a loaner and a great expresso at the Lexus dealership, but I’d be more “styling” with my leather Camry loaded to the gills.
So Buick can suck it – I’d take the Camry, probably wouldn’t even go to the Buick dealership for a drive. I know going in to either of these cars that they will hold a better resale than the Buick ever could.
But daymn, somebody’s screwing up at Lexus if all they can do is slightly minimize the “catfish” grill from the Camry. Jeez, that thing is ugly.
FWIW, Camry just had a full refresh and the ES is in its last model year before its full refresh based on the Avalon. So not necessarily apples:apples unless you’re buying today and can’t wait for fall for the new ES.
The new ES will use the same TNGA platform as the current Camry and Prius and upcoming Avalon and RAV4.
If you go with the V6, isn’t a Camry just short of $40k?
No, it’s pretty much impossible to get one beyond $34k.
Where the V6 Camry tops out, the base Avalon begins.
And a number of Toyota dealers will discount either one, just to make that sale and keep the buyer from walking.
My BFF bought his 2015 Avalon BELOW $30K. mid year at Vescovo in Las Cruces, NM; an outstanding Toyota dealership.
I know the upcharge for the V6 is someplace around $4,000 — I hadn’t looked at MSRPs directly.
But you’re still missing a couple items on the Camry, like factory remote start, that you can get on other models. Presumably, that’s saved for the Avalon. (Memory seats, also, maybe.)
Civicjohn, the LaCrosse beats thr Lexus ES more times than not in comparison tests, so not check one out?
Who is Stu Fowle? Is he formally speaking for Buick? Or is he just a lowly social media personality?
The answer to that is “both, plus failed autowriter.”
You have to admit, it does have a nice old-timey ring to it.
Actually,Buick is not selling 2018 Regals of any type – because they are STILL not on dealer lots. I double dare you to try your local dealer and see if they have any or just are waiting for the `dozens`in transit that will be there any day.
There are 2,100 Sportback on the lot according to cars dot com.
My local dealer has 17, according to their website. But they are 2 minutes from the Tech Center.
Jack, there’s really nothing prestigious about an ES. They sell out of sheer habit on the part of the buyers. I’ll bet 80% of the sales are just because the salesmen keep good records about when the leases end and the lack of desire on the part of the customers to consider alternatives. A new customer the near luxury market is not really gonna go “oh, wow, that Lexus ES is the one I’ve got to have.”
We might have to disagree. At my previous office job, one of the middle management ladies got a base ES and the reaction from the dozen women in the department was more enthusiastic than the male response to me bringing a new Huracan to the office a month previous.
Did they know that this is spruced up v6 Camry?
@Slavuta: ES is Avalon, right?
Having rented a 2018 Camry SE recently, I think TM is differentiating Lexus and Toyota by making Toyotas even less luxurious. The Camry SE interior was quite bad.
Technically, yes. Identical platform to Avalon. I took a look across 2017, all three models have same powertrain, identical EPA. etc. Biggest discrepancy is wheelbase which is slightly less in Camry. My point still stands though – ES is still a FWD car that resembles (and even has same parts) of v6 Camry but has better materials.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?comparatorId=1427781&veh1=401659475%7Csedan&veh2=401689592&veh3=401647951
A spruced-up Camry may actually be better than a bespoke luxury platform. Ironically, Jack wrote at TTAC about the reasons why (it comes down to the engineering budget being larger for mass-market cars). In this particular instance, ES may be a pretty bad automobile, as I had a misfortune to learn when my IS was in for an oil change. See http://zaitcev.mee.nu/2016_lexus_es . But whatever ES faults are, I’m laying them at the feet of the platform sharing in general.
Surprised they reacted that way about an ES, but I’d absolutely believe they’d react that way about a RX.
Sorry, the average non-wealthy, non-enthusiast person is impressed by an ES. The badge is the signifier that matters, as the lay consumer cannot readily distinguish the differences between a $45k sedan and a $100k one beyond size, which is the ES’ biggest selling point.
Lexus is like Mercedes and BMW at this point, no one but us car geeks care WHICH one you get, the great unwashed just see the L and think “oooh fancy.”
Isn’t it odd that that perception never rubbed off on Acura?
Acura did fairly well as “Honda, with extra toppings,” for a bit.
They lost the plot when they went to letters instead of names. Then they went full-SUV, big-beak, and that’s all she wrote.
A good number of buyers have been defecting to the smaller brands. Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo, Infiniti, Genesis Alfa Romeo & Maserati
Lexus & BMW have both taken big hits.
S2K, you are on point. One my relative, she is not even able to drive on highway. She is afraid of it. But when time came to buy, she only wanted Lexus or Acura. Now that she realized that no-one specifically impressed by her 40K+ car, she’s saying, I could of have had Mazda and saved 10 grand.
I’m no fan of Dave Ramsey but these are wise words of his:
“We buy things we don’t need with money we don’t have to impress people we don’t like.”
There are many people who do buy Toyota/Lexus automatically.
It’s like the guy buying his 3 Impala in 1972. His neighbors didn’t question “Why” and neither did he. And he likely didn’t even visit any other showroom.
We’re used to floor sales people not knowing very much about the cars they’re selling, but to see PR out of headquarters (I presume) equally clueless is jaw-dropping. And concerning.
Well, it’s Buick in 2018. I don’t think anyone is excited.
At least the nasty old 3800 cars that ate intake gaskets thanks to Dexcool were interesting in an anachronistic way. Nobody is looking for a loaded Camcord at the Buick dealer.
Chevy already builds a nice Impala.
The Asian crossovers are probably limited in sales scope by the Buick branding. Thus, perhaps, why they are de-emphasizing said Buick branding…
The Church reminds Brother KalapanaBlack it was 60V6 who ate intake gaskets…
The 3800 Series II ate plastic-framed lower intake manifold gaskets just like the 60 degree V6. The plastic frame would lose its shape around the coolant passages and then the now-unsupported silicone seal would give out.
Lower intake gaskets were redesigned a few times by GM; the final design is metal with reinforced, more comprehensive sealing beads. Fel-Pro makes them too. The Pontiac Bonneville Club has the best write-up on the issue, along with the poorly-insulated upper intake manifold EGR stovepipe passage that could melt an opening into the coolant passage by the throttle body. Plastic coolant elbows also have a tendency to crumble, but Dorman makes aluminum ones.
Otherwise, lovely torquey motor. A bit breathless up high. Only sold my 2002 Grand Prix GT to my father because of all the stop and go extra-urban driving I do. Wish it had the hardened overdrive shaft splines in the transmission from the factory. Would probably drive another one again, preferably a Series III and TAPshift.
Buick has been, ahem, jerking their own chain for a while now…
http://www.cbc.ca/news/gm-faces-car-name-conundrum-1.775246
Not a Lexus fanboi but I do have a 2016 ES350 I bought off lease after a lot of shopping.
You cannot get cloth seats in an ES350. Vinyl is standard but they have some other name for it.
Heated seats are not standard, but in my shopping and experience, it is very unusual to find an ES without heated seats.
Lexus has a few option packages and that’s the way most ES350’s are optioned up, with “Luxury” (heated and cooled leather seats, basically), and “Navigation” (nav, traffic and weather, Sirius, the mouse controller, etc.). I have those and “Premium”, as well as a couple more add on a la carte options.
Most ES350 options are available a la carte, and you can easily find a “stripper” ES350 with heated seats and not much else if that’s what you desire. That’s how many ex-service loaners seem to be equipped.
This is typical of Lexus packaging and has been for years.
Most Lexus models have a “Premium” package that includes heated/cooled front seats and a few other minor options. It is nearly impossible to find one without Premium and navigation. Other, more expensive options are more rare, to varying degrees. There’s usually a “Luxury” package with semi-aniline leather and further seat upgrades that is in only a few of the cars.
I was waiting for their 2nd generation of a near luxury compact car, with power. Money was waiting in hand to see how my Verano Turbo would be substantially restyled and improved. And for a change, perhaps with some marketing program worth that name to go with it.
Instead they made a weak version for China and then cancelled the car entirely here.
I now own a different brand and hope they die.
I still like thr only Verano sold here. Came standard with 18″ wheels had a more muscular body than did it Cruze cousin. Thr restyle looked too much like a 2nd Gen Cruze.
The only thing I can guarantee about Buick is that if I’m behind one on the road, I’m guaranteed to be late to wherever I’m going.
Bonus points when the blinker stays on for more than 60 seconds (50/50 odds).
Bah, young whippersnapper :) I drive my new Lacrosse just fine thank you. I will say it does hit an indicated 120 mph in a short amount of time.
Here in Washington, it’s Lexus/Toyota that are the choice for slow-brained boomers and over cautious immigrants.
The old people in the Buicks are the feisty contrarian ones that will calmly beat you to the merge point.
Here in Washington, it’s Lexus/Toyota that are the choice for slow-brained boomers and over cautious immigrants.
The old people in the Buicks are the feisty contrarian ones that will calmly beat you to the merge point.
If you darned young people would leave ten minutes earlier you wouldn’t be in such a gal-darned hurry all the time!
And stay off my lawn!
Things I learned today:
– United hires people dumb enough to store living animals in the overhead compartment, where they then cease to be living
– Buick still sells (or will sell) a GS version of the Regal they themselves call a “sedan”, but it has a liftback like it’s non-GS counterpart.
Never knew an overhead bin was airtight!
Apparently (and tragically), neither did airline personnel.
Well, good thing Mr. Fowle has all his facts straight.
(sarc)
Keep ’em honest, TTAC.
Thank you Jack for letting us see the back and forth. So much better than having a staffer vanish off the internet. Keep up the great work!
Jack,
we support you. We know that people working for Buick are bunch of unprofessional, inadequate and delusional laymen. Otherwise they would take your points and run with them.
On the point you gave to them, it would be interesting to see, while sales are up just like every other company, did they grow any market percentage? Then, may be, take your point back
I brought up the weight issue on yesterday’s post. I think it’s a total screw-up by someone in Buick marketing – both the Buick web site and the GM Fleet site show EXACTLY the same weight for FWD and AWD Buicks in 2017 and 2018. So either GM lied when they said they dropped 400 lbs from the triplets in the redesign – and somehow managed to make them weigh exactly the same – or a lazy drone copied and pasted last year’s data into the spec tables. I’m guessing it’s the latter.
Buick and Cadillac only exist because their customer base, who considered them aspirational brands 50 years ago, hasn’t finished dying off yet.
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Yup. But they are dying off at an increasingly rapid pace.
Hence the rush to get “young bloods” interested in the Buick and Cadillac line of vehicles.
Mmmmmm, good luck with that.
This is where the German brands excel and to some extent the Japanese brands.
What does a successful person under the age of 50 want to be seen driving? I’m guessing here but I don’t think it is either Buick or Cadillac.
Youngbloods do not have the money. But the average for a TLX at 57 does as does thr average age of 57 years for a new Buick buyer.
NormSV650, why do you say that “Youngbloods do not have the money.”
The “young bloods” I’m referring to are already predisposed to buying a luxury ride like BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Lexus.
They end up buying one of those brands. And that’s why GM is pushing to get them to look at Buick and Cadillac.
BTW, I thought the average Buick buyer was 60+. It was when I was buying domestics.
I am a “Young Blood” and I can safely say none of us have any money for new cars but there are many young people who dig vintage luxo-barges and will continue driving them until the wheels fall off.
” I can safely say none of us have any money for new cars ”
Well, speak for yourself.
There are plenty of youngbloods in the world that do have money and are predisposed to buying BMW, Audi and Mercedes, generally in exactly that order.
I’ve never known anyone in their 20s who owns a BMW Audi or Mercedes unless you count 20 year old 7 series and S Class models. Early 00s M3s perhaps. The only young people buying brand new Benzes are those awful CLA or whatever their homely crossover is called. And in the driver seat are usually girls who look affluent and are busy texting while driving. Not necessarily people who are “into” cars.
But sitting here pigeon holing what brand new vehicles “young people” are going to purchase new is silly. The slightest bit of research will show many millenials are sticking with used vehicles and keeping them a lot longer because the average new car cost is about 30k and that is simply unrealistic for lots of people, young and old, in these current times.
I have seen plenty of people under 30 driving new BMW, Audi and Mercedes cars in places where I went on business, like Manhattan, NYC, Atlanta, GA, Houston, TX, Los Angeles and San Diego, CA, Seattle, WA, Denver, CO. Hell, even in Jackson Hole, WY!
Several of our real estate attorneys representing our business in various states actually drove BMW, Audi or Mercedes.
I have never seen any of them, or any of our real estate agents drive a Buick.
Ironically, the BMW 3-series appears to be favored by women while the Audi and Mercedes cars were favored by men.
Maybe we’re not traveling in the same circles.
I’m sure its common for “real estate attorneys” to drive 50k dollar cars (or finance or lease them to project their status only to end up in credit debt or unable to afford repairs…) but that is not the majority of millenials. That is my only point here.
I am not in any way saying that young people are buying new Buicks, nor should they. What I am saying is that regardless of your business circle many young people can’t afford new cars, thus they keep Grandma’s hand-me-down Buick for a few more years before buying anything newer. And even then, its often a USED car we’re talking about not brandy new.
Another factor is that things you may not even remember become retro and gain a different appeal that speaks to certain younger people, and perhaps they grow fond of a certain type of 80s or 90s car you may overlook completely. An 18 year old today might really, really have their heart set on owning a 1992 Honda Prelude for whatever reason…point is that the internet allows us to look backward moreso than before.
To look over brands like Honda, Dodge, Toyota, Chevy (new or used) and say that tons of kids 20-30y.o. are driving around in Bimmers is ignoring a huge part of the population.
RatherhaveaBuick, it’s all about about a person’s perspective, I suppose.
Fighter pilots, as an example, are fond of Corvettes, Beemers and JGC SRT8s. One of them is married to my grand daughter, and told me so.
Wall Street brokers love exotics, even the young’uns. Come bonus time, they waltz into dealerships and pay cash for them.
Different strokes for different folks.
I think you underestimate the number of $50K millionaires, who thought they had a rendezvous with yuppie destiny only to find it was a poison chalice. The number of German car yupsters from 1998-2008 is staggering.
Someday, many of these people will have solid careers and they will have luxury car money. Do you think they will go crawling back to BMW or Audi for the same car they owned in their 20’s? You think they will lease again knowing it the contract will have a $4,000 sting in the tail?
The future is uncertain, but the German manufacturers do not have it wrapped up.
Quote from above—Base ES comes with non-heated vinyl seats; the Luxury package is basically a grab bag of everything that SHOULD be standard, but then again it only costs another $1,700 all-in.———————————————–
Seems like Buick wants to be considered a “Luxury” brand but reverts to the “econo” brand trick of building a stripped model, so they can advertise a “cheap” price.
Come on, if you wan’t to be a luxury brand, don’t be ashamed of your price!
As I posted in the other thread, a TourX equipped like I want is right around $36K. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. But there’s no point in selling a $29K model that doesn’t have the options that a “Buick buyer” should want.
Think more of your customers.
ItsBob
Some of us do not equate luxury with added doodads. Luxury is lasting quality and style to some of us. What you may view as an undesireble stripper is what some of us want.
The people at Buick, as talented and dedicated to the brand must be realistic about Buick.
The vehicles Buick touts as great are really everyday hacks. Even GMC is mutton done up as lamb.
In Australia a comparison was carried out between an Insignia (Commodore/Buick) and a Kia Stinger.
In Australia Kia is regerded as a “working class” brand. The Kia was voted the better of the two.
Jack is right, but also the view held by many that Buick is luxury when there are so many better and many cheaper choices is a misnomer.
If the view by US manufacturers is what it is regarding competitive vehicles might be another contributing factor for sub par vehicle exports.
Its not just Buick that needs a restructure.
That Regal GS vs Stinger GT comparison was with a 3-year old driving a 330hp rear drive car. Of course he is going to like that power with RWD.
Um, read the article.
Kia has the same problem with the Stinger. In a 150 mile radius, there are only about 6 stingers sitting on the lots. And not one is under 40K. There are about 12 regal sportbacks in that same area, and they cover the base model up to the essence.
I’m actually starting to not believe the Stinger Hype, especially since inventory is still very low and dealers aren’t keeping the base models.
The success of GMC and market shift to utility vehicles should be the final nail in the coffin of Buick in the US. Buick still has a ton of negative brand equity to many like myself. Why waste money trying to resurrect its image, when In the same showroom you have a brand that is actually somewhat aspirational. I have no idea what a Buick is anymore. What does it consider core product? Their portfolio resembles Kenmore appliances. Little more than just a label slapped on various GM products sold elsewhere.
True. The biggest threat to Buick is GMC stomping all over the CUV playground. Chevrolet is in the same situation, though their CUVs are selling very well.
Someone needs to tell GMC to build a new Jimmy/Trailblazer. That will keep them busy for a while. Maybe they will forget about the Terrain and Acadia.
If you have went around thr block in a GMC and a Buick you would understand.
I’ve told this story before, but we could not have a Buick when I was growing up. My grandfather decreed that in the hierarchy that was GM back in the day, our family peaked at Pontiac. Any Chrysler product, up to and including Imperial, was fine. Because… well, because. To appease my mother dad considered a new Buick. I still remember the lightning bolt that hit the house in the form of my grandfather yelling, “Hal, we are NOT Buick people”! Before slamming the door and disappearing in a cloud of Mopar smoke.
In 1982 I had the audacity to buy the forbidden fruit in the form of an Electra sedan. My grandfather was gone and the door to the dark side was open. Dad would always have to “borrow” it when I was home and it was a riot to see the old man glide back home with all the windows down, the stereo cranked up and his arm hanging out the window. Buick was fading even then, but it still meant something.
I’m not sure what Buick is now. I know GM was built on the back of Buick and it has saved GM’s bacon a few times. Buick nearly died in the late 1950’s except for Harlow Curtice, GM’s President, who had ran Buick back in the day had had deep love for the brand. Buick’s popularity in China probably helped save GM even recently.
I’ll be 62 this year and my doctor insists that I’ll live another 30 years. I’d like to see Buick last at least that long because my life would somehow seem sadder without Buick around. We go way back.
Nice post. I believe your grandfather was just too much of a Mopar man to be seen in The General, I’m surprised he tolerated Pontiac and Chevrolet.
With Buick average buying age of 57 years, might I suggest a Lincoln with 60-year average age?
Long time listener. First time caller. (nerd alert) Anyway. For what its worth. My dad will turn 73 this June. He leases a new car every 2-3 years (based on whatever the terms and conditions of the lease agreement may be). He’ll never buy a Buick. Never. Why? Because to him: “old people drive Buick’s”. I’m 42. I’ll never buy a Buick. Why? Because for me… and for my dollars… there are just simply much better options on offer throughout the entire Luxury / Premium market segment. Sorry Buick. Sassy comments sent to an online auto journalist website surely aren’t gonna win anybody over. But good job. You get a attaboy because at least you tried. Right? No? OK then. Know how you could really try? IMHO. Try by adding an executive level officer at the marketing position. Largest company in the world not to employ a marketing manager at a corporate executive level. Sad. Then try to create a cohesive brand image on the national level (vs non stop snooze fest localized lease offer commercials). Then quickly follow that up by cars and SUVs that would truly rival the competition. You know. Products that people will give a damn about at the consumer level. Products like you sold to the world decades ago. But. Then again. This is GM [and Buick] that we’re talking about. So I won’t hold my breath. In the meantime. Keep on keeping on. Because right now. In 2018. Buick = China. Or is it. China = Buick. IDK. Hard to tell. Probably really just one in the same at this point.
My dad is exactly the same. Of course, he has been getting a new CTS every 2 years for a decade. He briefly looked at the La Crosse the last time. He said “It is an old man’s car.” I explained that he was 71. And that perhaps he was too old for that CTS-V he got a great lease deal on. He replaced it with a CTS V Sport.
Unless you need twin turbocharged v6 like the Germnas, Lincoln, or Cadillac offers, the 3.6l or 2.0T in a Buick does offer plenty of punch along with good fuel economy with a torque converter transmission. The Twin Clutch AWD is on par with BMW xDrive along with great torque vectoring that is a hoot with electronics off.
Buick offers modest features, refined interiors, subtle styling, and segment competitive handling today that challenge the affordable Japanese cars and sedans but offer more features, longer 4/50 warranty, and a much lower price after discounting.
Wow, they’re sensitive.
“It gave me no pleasure to write it; I can still remember being five years old and waiting with anticipation for my father to bring home his new steel-grey 1977 LeSabre sedan.”
Sounds familiar. I remember going to one of the local (now long-gone) Buick dealers with my by-then-retired (also now long departed) next-door neighbor, to trade in his gold ’70 LeSabre Custom (350 2-barrel) four-door sedan, for a metallic orange ’77 LeSabre four-door sedan, this one being a later ’77 model with the even-firing V6.
He owned it for less than two years, trading it on a metallic purple(!) ’79 VW Dasher five-door hatchback, less than a year after I bought my ’78 Audi Fox.
dukeisduke,
The world has moved on and now there are far more choices than 40-50 years ago.
Competition.
GM showed me the door when they killed Oldsmobile behind the woodshed.
I went to a Buick dealer to look at a LeSabre. It was the 2004 model. It felt so cheap on the inside. So, I saved my money and bought a Malibu V6. If it was going to be cheap on the materials, I was going to have a low monthly payment.
I wanted a big car again. I tried looking at the Buick dealer. I purchased a big car at my local Buick dealer…a used Ford Five Hundred. I test drove the Regal. It was worse than my Uglibu in every possible way – it was cramped, it was a dog, and it was expensive for being a warmed-over Vauxhall-Opel special. I didn’t look at the LaCrosse, because that was the era of the 1-star-crash Grand Prix sister pelvis separator. I simply didn’t trust the car. I looked at a Lucerne. With the 3800 Series III, it was a dog; I was told that was a better power train than the north star, because the north star had the same problem as the DTS where it would shake at highway speeds, and then the north star engine would commit suicide.
Now, in 2016, I gave Buick another chance. However, the car I thought was really something – the turbo version of the Verano – had just been axed, and the last one was sold from my dealer’s inventory while I was waiting to talk to someone. They had plenty of Regals – you know, the lost love child of Hitler’s VW bug and a slug. I couldn’t see your new LaCrosse, because, well, they weren’t in from China yet. The Lucerne was put out to pasture. I bought a Taurus.
In 2017, I had to advise a relative on buying a new vehicle that was winter-friendly. He owns my old Grand National, as well as a bunch of nice cars. He’s partial to Buick. We walked dealership lots not just here, but three counties over. The problem is, again and again, that your cars are dogs. Unless you’re smitten with swoopy styling, there’s nothing to recommend the Encore over the Acadia, or the 5-seat China Special (I don’t care its name) from the Terrain, especially given that the Terrain had a performance engine option while your 5-seat people-mover had a 4-cylinder slug. The Encore is too slow as well.
When you can get the same interior in a Ford or a Chevy, and every Buick engine is a slug, you have become last-years Mercury, and not even Jill could make Mercury relevant. At least you could still buy an Olds 88 LSS and then an Intrigue short star in the last-years of Oldsmobile.
“GM showed me the door when they killed Oldsmobile behind the woodshed.”
I know exactly how you feel since I was an Olds fan from waaaaay back, and owned a 1972 Custom Cruiser and a Toronado, both bought new.
Well, to be fair, the LSS and Intrigue 3.5 only shared space for one year (1999).
But, despite all their flaws, didn’t those GMs make you feel like someone was trying? They were objectively much worse cars than anything today, in every way, had no real brand differentiation, no engineering differentiation, but they were relatable in their flaws and attractive in a nontraditional way.
The Lesabre interior was not really any worse than a $40k Aurora or a $60k STS. Sadly.
I find all three more enticing than the spreadsheet-mobiles hawked by GM now.
You say Buick is a slug but yet shares the same engines and transmissions as thr rest of GM lineup?
Full disclosure: I’m 26. Username implied: I’ve always liked Buicks. But like many millenials, used cars are and probably will continue to be my only automotive playground. New cars…well they’re just overpriced and heavy and scary, honestly.
In terms of the 1990s Buicks that I’ve known/driven and dealt with (many) I have to say that most have held up well and I think the quality of a 3800 speaks for itself. They were very well built cars throughout my lifetime (minus the unspeakable sins like Terraza and Rendezvous)and certainly in comparison to other 1990s GM products. I still see them everywhere and even in their roughest shape they continue to putter around. I can’t say the same about my father’s 1981 Skylark or pretty much anything from the 1970s, but I do like those cars nonetheless, they’re charming in their own right. I think Buick sedan styling has always been the best of GM. Of course the Grand National is almost Holy Grail level in my mind…
Anyway circa 2018, Buick’s purpose is dismal. I was happy about 10 years ago (yes, I’ve liked old man cars my entire life) when people started talking about Buick again, even on this very site. The Enclave and redesigned Lacrosse were big steps in the right direction but at this point, no ones buying them and they only get uglier as time rolls on. My mother had a Verano for a few years and it wasn’t a bad car, but certainly not as good as it could’ve been.
Buicks CUV’s and SUVs are the only things that sell….and if GMC is already selling upmarket CUVs and no ones buying the new Regal, maybe its time to rethink Buick’s existence. Never thought I’d say that, but considering Buick should predominantly be a brand that makes “Premium American Motorcars” and not “premium upmarket Chevy Trax’s” I think the current situation is a bit sad. Seeing the inside of the new Lacrosse was also disappointing, I mean, how do you REMOVE the CD player from a 40k car?
In the end, I know that the only modern Buicks I’ll look to own in my future are the current GS and maybe a 16-18 Lacrosse when they hit used markets. Beyond that I think its obvious GM can’t put 100% into designing Premium AMERICAN Motorcars under the Buick name, otherwise there would be a 2020 Roadmaster in the works and the Regal GS would be a BMW competitor
At this point I’ll keep buying trusty old 3800 powered Tri Sheilds and keep an eye on this Death Watch.
The products get better with each generation. Flagging sales is attributable to poor positioning, and overall lack of brand awareness.
Regarding the Encore, I’ve made my peace with it. It exists to scoot around urban areas and through dense suburbia. It has a role to play, and the luxury car manufacturers haven’t really taken notice of this segment. Lexus is trying.
Buick won’t die. I think Jack was just saying he’d rather see it die that live on in a depleted state for the amusement of China.
Yes, Buick is 80% cuv/suv sales now. Pretty much on par with other near-luxury nameplates. So you don’t like cuvs?
No I don’t really like CUVs.
But regardless, that’s not what a Buick should be. Walk over to GMC if you want something like that. Buick was always a tiny bit more unique than the other GM brands. Subdued and reliable but with some style and maybe some torque. That needs to be their market. People will still buy a good car regardless of the CUV craze. Sleepers and turbos. They should be putting Tri Shields on better CARS.
There’s simple ways they could be doing this they’re just not trying hard enough. The Regal GS is a fine start. Where is a modernized equivalent of the Riviera? The bean counters always win out.
HEY BUICK IF YOU GUYS ARE READING THIS: you should consider letting this 26 year take charge of your marketing because otherwise you will soon share a fate with Mercury and Oldsmobile. There is a way to sell your modern vehicles to younger buyers without abandoning the original principles of your brand. Keep changing brand perception but don’t entirely abandon tradition.
This seems to indicate that the lingering problem for GM is that they don’t know how the auto industry cross shops and compares vehicles.
GM/Buick thinks: Lacrosse is an ES350 competitor. That’s how we’ve priced it, and it has a hybrid option like ES. It’s bigger than ES350. Avenir trim is as good as base Lexus trim.
Car-buyers think: Lacrosse is the size of a GS, but the interior isn’t even comparable to the ES. Avenir trim is nice, but bolt-on parts can’t fundamentally alter interior design. LaCrosse E-Assist makes 10mpg less than ES300h. They aren’t really competitors, even if E-Assist is a hybrid system.
Buick did the same thing with the Regal and TLX, imo. Regal stacks well against TLX, but they aren’t the same size and I’m not sure many people cross shop TLX SH A-Spec with the Regal.
Thr auto journalist have also pitted the LaCrosse against the Lexus ES and more times than not have pick thr Buick over thr Lexus. Maybe you should drive them before commenting?
Most auto journalists do as they are told. Comparisons between LaCrosse and ES prove that Buick thinks the comparison is apt. Maybe it is. Both cars are FWD and they have similar costs if the LaCrosse is optioned at Avenir trim. Buick is trying to make the argument that Buick is more car for the money because it’s considerably larger.
Maybe I’m wrong, but this comparison method (bigger is better) seems ignorant of consumer satiation. We don’t drive around in school buses. At some point, people feel a vehicle is big enough, and buying more vehicle will actually damage the ownership experience and their finances.
It seems Buick is trying to re-educate the consumer, and they are opening themselves to unfavorable comparisons from vehicles like the 300C that feature RWD, V8 power, and a longer wheelbase for roughly the same money.
Check C&D review of thr 2018 LaCrosse with eAssist. It almost gained 40 mpg in their 75 mph highway test. The same or better than the Avalon and ES350h hybrids.
I look at new Buicks every few months when I get my oil changed at the local GM dealer. I think, that’s a nice looking car, then I look inside and think, nope, just not good enough. That’s everything GM makes, trucks and Corvette excepted. This is what Stu needs to understand, they are good, but not good enough. Too bad, especially as they are finally taking a chance on wagons and hatchbacks
Buick as a brand is presently zombie-like with a product line up cobbled together with minimal thought to the brand standing for something. And that is the current failure. The whole is less than the sum of the parts. The Lacrosse, Regal and new Enclave are solid offerings and the author is biased and too harsh.The Lacrosse and Enclave share many classic Buick attributes. The rest of the line is using products that are not cohesive to fill holes in the lineup on the cheap. But compared to Cadillac, i would call Buick a rockstar. The Buick brand can and should flourish, not die. GM would be better served investing more in Buick vs Cadillac.
After 25 years of German and Japanese luxury cars i bought a 2015 Lacrosse. I wanted a fatigue free daily driver. While the driving dynamics are not like the E-class i came out of, they are very good. The car is quiet, comfortable, and handles more than well enough. In 3 years it has never been back for service just like my Japanese cars and unlike the German ones. I would have readily purchased the new Lacrosse without hesitation. However, any vehicle with non-defeatable start/stop gets crossed of my list. The Lacrosse was my first GM car in over 30 years. Because of their approach to start/stop implementation, it will be my last. Sad because it seems GM has mostly gotten it right. C’est la vie.
You can shift into “L” to defeat start/stop or delay until the cars in front of you have all pulled up and stop at the redlight as that is what I do as I’d like the stopping to keep the engine off longer.
Or you can lower the AC temperature and turn the fan speed off or low lime my wife does and it defeats the stopping. But I found that if I turn my temperature to 75° then stop/start is engaged again. :)
Now find me a story about a Lexus where this much of the comments was devoted to Buick. Clueless hack should stay in his lane.
I think it funny that Buick got so upset.
I doubt any of their customers come to this site. Or know what that new fangled internet thingee is.
Their ad policy should be “Come for the $219 a month Envision lease deal! Encores $129!”
The thing is, the cars aren’t THAT bad. The new Regal is nice. $12-15k too much, but nice. The La Crosse is a good old peoples car, just $15k too much. Both would be nice rental cars, when you have a free upgrade from a Sonata.
Sounds about right in line with Final Four promo for 20% off MSRP.
I live in Warren, so sticker prices are meaningless. 20% off a GM product is the minimum you should expect. Which is the problem. People have been getting GM cars cheap for so long, they won’t pay the price GM needs. Or ridiculous lease deals to move the cars.
I’m not some huge Buick fan (never owned one) but I have to give credit where it’s due, they’re offering a mid-sized AWD wagon (even Acura bailed out of doing that) and a car that looks like a liftback and actually is. (unlike the new Accord)
Is the Regal in either form the best in segment? Maybe not, but seems like it’s still very good, and at least they’re giving us something unique at a price (with incentives and negotiations) that you won’t get on an Audi A5 liftback or a Volvo wagon. And you gotta admit the new Regal looks pretty damn sweet as well. (Especially the TourX wagon)
The fact that it’s designed and built in Germany by Opel (now owned by a French comppany) doesn’t bother me a bit. If they start importing Buicks from China it might be a different story, but there’s nothing wrong with a German designed and built car backed by the largest dealership network in the U.S. is there? Besides, I don’t think Opel allows their engineers to overengineer everything possible, a Regal should be more reliable than your average German car.
jbm…they already are importing Buicks from China…see the Envision (or better yet, don’t). Sad that a stalwart American brand is quickly outsourcing to a country that is neither friend or ally. Of course, same can be said for Ford. Makes trying to find an American designed and made car (with a large portion of content) very difficult. I guess if I had to right now, I’d likely be looking more towards a Marysville-built Accord (with a six-speed manual, no less).
I agree with you jbm, the new Regals are lookers in both wagon and “sportback” form. And yes I’m glad that they’re not just giving the shape of a liftback (Civic Sedan, Accord, others) but the actual functionality which is fantastic. Those aforementioned phony-liftbacks have decreasingly small trunk openings as the deck continues to shrink.
I am truest ashamed of Buick. Since fall of Oldsmobile, Buick needs to fire all Y generation design teams. 1 recent comments by Buick when asked about a new GS performance car not trim car or GN or GNX,, they said No!! , Why?? Cadillac won’t and Buick both refuse to make a real luxury car, yet others are taking their big cars away and I think most remember bothcadillac were top of the line cars. Opel, Regal; really ?? Caters failed under Cadillac, oh yes was Opel too! . Big as Buick was America’s Buick , NOT ANY MORE. I own one of the 37 promo cars for Park Ave series, ( one of one red , of 37), I. Also own one of 12 known RoadHawk Skyhawk cars. What is wrong with GM not allowing individual spirit between its cars, own motors, and cars not bing like next brand with different tail lights?? Cadillac emblem in Heritage was ruined, Buick logo also robbed of its Heritage. Buick needs to revive muscle cars, full-size (19ft long) cars, rag tops, coupes, Riviera, GS, GN, maybe even Wild cat. Lost names killed Pontiac and Oldsmobile, GM WAKE UP OR BUICK IS DEAD, and exec’s did it, fire present designers, bring people who love Heritage and bring back classic names and designs back to new cars! National Club is too old to say anything I will, WAKE UP BUICK
I’ll offer my real-world experience with Buicks. Like many, I had a view of Buick’s as poor-man’s Cadillacs or the almost-luxury car for those who for reasons of heritage or habit couldn’t abide buying a foreign car. Moreover, I had little tolerance for GM after they took tax money to prop up their business instead of doing the respectable thing and going bankrupt, and using that process to control labor costs and rebuild. I had driven a number of luxury cars through the years, and didn’t think Buick could compare. I then was given a Buick LaCrosse to use in my new position–I didn’t get a vote as to what car I would drive. I was completely impressed. It drove wonderfully, not the marshmallow Buicks of old but also not a Jeep. The fit and finish were superb. And for the price point it had more technology than any of what I would consider peers and aspirants–Volvo, Lexus, Acura, Genesis, etc. I ended up having to get an SUV, but I miss the ride, incredible quiet, huge back seat, and comfort of the LaCrosse. There really was nothing I didn’t love about that car. It may be that the brand name is at this point unhelpful (I think it’s fine, but I’m not a youngster). But that sedan is one of the best on the market. As for price, I think it is a bit overpriced, but mainly because of the brand and resale–not because of what one gets for the price.
Just out of curiosity… What made you “have to get” an SUV? Did your employer mandate it?
Yep. The nature of my work was such that the LaCrosse (which went to another senior person who loves it) was not as appropriate as the SUV. It was a matter of cargo space.
Time for Jack to do a LaCrosse review and title something about Buick off of life support and doing fine.
I’ll offer my real-world experience with Buicks. Like many, I had a view of Buick’s as poor-man’s Cadillacs or the almost-luxury car for those who for reasons of heritage or habit couldn’t abide buying a foreign car. Moreover, I had little tolerance for GM after they took tax money to prop up their business instead of doing the respectable thing and going bankrupt, and using that process to control labor costs and rebuild. I had driven a number of luxury cars through the years, and didn’t think Buick could compare. I then was given a Buick LaCrosse to use in my new position–I didn’t get a vote as to what car I would drive. I was completely impressed. It drove wonderfully, not the marshmallow Buicks of old but also not a Jeep. The fit and finish were superb. And for the price point it had more technology than any of what I would consider peers and aspirants–Volvo, Lexus, Acura, Genesis, etc. I ended up having to get an SUV, but I miss the ride, incredible quiet, huge back seat, and comfort of the LaCrosse. There really was nothing I didn’t love about that car. It may be that the brand name is at this point unhelpful (I think it’s fine, but I’m not a youngster). But that sedan is one of the best on the market. As for price, I think it is a bit overpriced, but mainly because of the brand and resale–not because of what one gets for the price.
Still puzzled over old guys Buick getting the nod and Pontiac getting the shaft
If you knew what they were about to do with Pontiac you’d thank god it was put down while it still had dignity.
I was selling Oldsmobiles when word of the phase out was announced at 3 AM PST on December 12, 2000. At least my favorite brand got to live on until April 27, 2004. Our dealership remained a viable Oldsmobile site until the last “official” day, December 31,2004.
Pontiac was jettisoned quickly, probably about six months from announcement to phase out, in 2009.
I wish GM would keep Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Buick, along with Chevrolet and Cadillac.
Saturn had to go. By 2007 they were competing against other GM brands and even had “market adjustment pricing” (they did not like to use the word rebate!).
I miss Pontiac. I had a 1979 Trans Am with the 403 Oldsmobile engine and Recaro seats. Cool machine that chirped in all three gears!
That’s one reason why I just bought the 88,000-mile 2003 Bonneville from Copart in Oregon for $850. Steel Blue SLE with the wonderful 3800 V6!
At least there are fourteen GM cars that are maintained by this “other” HIGH DESERT CAT!
I would pick up that Regal in red and quickly remove those Buick badges (front, rear, and wheel caps) and replace them with Opel ones. Nothing like messing around with people ;)
Regal GS I meant to say.
Apparently I’ve never seen an Encore before last weekend, because when I was walking down a lane a car parked in a row of other cars caught my attention out of the corner of my eye. It caught my attention because of the sheer ugliness of it. I thought “my god, what an ugly little blob, is that some new tiny euro car import?”. Then I saw the Buick emblem on grill, shook my head at what’s become of Buick. I figured it was a rebadged foreign car. It’s a classy emblem, which made this car look like even more of a joke. Like in the old days when dudes would be a Rolls emblem on their VW bugs.
Weird times at Buick. I can see the death knell.
Buick is among the worst brands on the road today in US of A. Speaking of brand here, not necessarily product. However, product is pretty bad too.
I have been saying since bankruptcy that they should have killed Buick and many naysayers wanted to fight me over it. I have owned two buicks, my family has owned dozens of buicks, and still own buicks. I recall the 76 skylark my mom had, which had crazy vibrations in the interiors going down the highway, all the way into the front headrests of the car. I recall the grenading transmissions, electrical gremlins, and other flaws in those cars over the years. It wasn’t all bad, the 3800s were nice at the time, but well long in the tooth by the end. My father owned a 1993 park avenue, there was something special about that car, it was “old GM” actually trying, it strongly reminded me of what I loved about the Caprice, too. The final straw which turned me off from Buick forever (and GM): A last gen lesabre. Those last gen lesabre cars really are POSes.
I’m an engineer in an industry similar to automotive, I know cost cutting BS when I see it. GM cars are riddled with it, like a festering cancer. Every time I work on my GM product, I observe ridiculous cost cutting. I will never own another GM product, EVER. There are dozens of OEMs out there I can choose from, I won’t be missing anything. Chrysler/Ford products are in some ways about on par with GM products quality wise, or even worse in some ways, but at least they make something that I’d like to own: i.e. 300, Pacifica, new RAM, F-150, fusion, expedition, Lincoln products, Jeep Grand Cherokee, etc.
Where’s Buick’s Lincoln Navigator? Where’s Buick’s Jeep Grand Cherokee? Where’s Buick’s Chrysler 300? I’ll give them that the Regal is essentially a ford fusion competitor, and that’s a problem…Where’s Buick’s Lincoln Continental?
Nice screen name. Sounds like you haven’t been in the current generations of Buick?
Which one, the rebaged opel, or the one from china?
All of these knocks against Buick are, quite frankly irrelevant. Talk of drivetrains especially – gas powered drivetrains are on the way out, and quickly. Buick is already designing for the Chevy Bolt platform – an upscale model priced a couple of thou higher. Their larger EVs will be spun off of GM’s large EV chasis – every GM car will come, at this pont, from one of two (or perhaps three) EV chasis. Which means that, in terms of mechanicals, no GM car wil be intrinsically superior to any other. And from the results of the Bolt chasis design, Buick will inherit a lot of well received characteristics. So any arguments about the Buicks of the past are irrelevant. I have confidence, after viewing the upcoming Buick EV, that Buick will do OK. A GM with only two main vehicle models (Cadillac and Chevy) is absurd – they don’t come close to covering the range of price/quality in the marketplace. Killing Buick makes no sense, although replacing their designers MAY be a wise move.So, all in all, killing Buick is a totally thoughtless, simple minded , illogical and a really dopey idea. I should warn automakers not to take any suggestions from this writer seriously. This is click bait, nothing else.
I see Buick hasn’t changed their tactics much over the past ten years. In 2008, I wrote about the Buick Enclave’s “sucky sales” and immediately received a sarcastic rebuttal from Dave Darovitz, Buick’s communication manager at that time.
(https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/01/buick-ttacs-truth-sucks/)
Interestingly, after I shot down his remarks we never heard from him again.